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Krishna Das 'Concert' GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
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126 posts Djinn Fizz 126 posts
Djinn Fizz
trippy wrote:
Sorry D F but you're totally wrong if you think a person like me who's been doing this for over 30 years will make the simple mistake of saying ICM started it all off.

Shame on you?!!?!? :wink:

Nick
I take it Mate, that this is your roundabout way of conceding that one can in fact make
Indian music without abiding by the rules of Hindustani classical strictures.
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gustav 9 posts
gustav
Went to a Krishna Das 'concert' some time ago.
I did not really want to go but I could not refuse a friend who wanted me to come with him.
After 5 minutes I had enough. I have never been to a more terminally boring concert, if that is what it was. Here was this middle-aged American singing Hindu bhajans with his dreadful American accent, playing his harmonium badly and sounding like a Christian preacher who recently converted to Hinduism.
Painful, embarrassing, just dreadful. And boring like hell.
Can anybody please explain to me what this guy is famous for ? For making a buck out of other peoples cultural heritage ? Tickets were not cheap at all.

Oh forget it, I don't know why I am writing this post. Maybe I am angry with myself for not refusing to attend this charade, this mockery of an ancient culture.
Two words will sum up this event and its perpetrator.
Cheap fake.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
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nicneufeld Senior Member 1,566 posts
nicneufeld
I would wager the vast majority of harmoniums imported into the United States are used to play insipid, Western chord based "kirtan", probably not terribly unlike what you listened to. There's a certain joyous irony to it all...the harmonium was imported by Western missionaries into India...adopted by the Indians to play (at least as well as it can) their music, and then imported back to the West where it is again used to play Western music, under the somewhat hilarious misconception that they are playing an instrument steeped in Indian culture and mysticism. I suppose its only a matter of time until we see hippies and yoga instructors attempting to play I-IV-V-IV campfire chord progressions on their newly purchased mohan veenas!

All that said, there's a huge market for people who love the whole Hindu chanting paired with easy-listening Western folk music. The temptation to mock is, well, oft-times far too great to be resisted for me, but still, I grant folks have differing tastes and that's OK. But I can't imagine sitting through a whole concert of that, particularly if you weren't way into that scene.

De gustibus non est disputandum!
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
Krisna Das strikes me as a bit uneven

There's a few things that I rather like of Krishna Das. For example,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47M9VD8OSX4

This particular track is obviously highly "produced", unlike what a live concert might be like, so that might well be less pleasant. I've tried listening to some other things of his, but none really jell with me.

I don't know much about him, but here's a bit from wikipedia ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna_Das_(singer)

And about Kirtans ....
Quote:
Paramhansa Yogananda was an early proponent of kirtan in the west, chanting Guru Nanak Dev's Hey Hari Sundara ("Oh God Beautiful") with 3,000 people at Carnegie Hall in 1923.[8]

Kirtan became more common with the spread of Gaudiya Vaishnavism by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness's (ISKCON) founder A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in the 1960s.[9] Yoga centers report an increase in attendance at kirtan; according to Pure Music’s Frank Goodman in 2009, kirtan has taken on a wider popularity.[clarification needed][10] Kirtan singers have appeared in the West, such as Krishna Das, Bhagavan Das and Jai Uttal as well as Snatam Kaur, Lokah Music, Deva Premal, Sadhu Nada, Aindra Prabhu and Gaura Vani & As Kindred Spirits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtan

As far back as 1923! Who knew!

Some of his stuff has been nominated for a grammy in the New Age category. He's been at this for quite a while now (since the 1970s).

In any case, while I don't count myself a fan, I see absolutely nothing .... let me emphasize that .... NOTHING ... on which to base the very harsh judgment that he's some sort of "cheap fake", or "making a buck" from someone else's culture (a charge that make little sense in my view), or that he's some sort of "mockery", etc..... and as for mocking him for his "dreadful American accent" ... well, what can one say about that ....



errare humanum est
To err is human

but also ...

damnant quodnon intelligunt
They condemn what they do not understand



Pascal
p.s. and if you want to hear real mockery of a culture, you should hear me "play" tabla!
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
nicneufeld wrote:
and then imported back to the West where it is again used to play Western music, under the somewhat hilarious misconception that they are playing an instrument steeped in Indian culture and mysticism.

I'm curious ... where exactly do you get the impression that some folks (who exactly?) have this "hilarious misconception" (why "hilarious"?) that the harmonium is somehow steeped in "Indian culture and mysticism"?



Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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Lars Senior Member 1,683 posts
Lars
I've never been to one of his concerts, it's not my scene but I know a lot of people that benefit from this type of music. Everyone has value, it just didn't have any for you. People listen to music to enjoy it and so his popularity is a reflection of his value to certain folks.
I'd take issue with this whole 'ancient culture' thing though, Indian music is rooted in old traditions but has constantly changed over the years like everything else does. It's easy to get in the mindset of being a guardian of a sacred and unchangeable ("it's always been this and that") art form or philosophy but it has no basis in reality and by doing this we risk becoming fossilized dullards. We're just on the train brother and its moving with or without us. No judgement here, just my 2 cents.... :wink:

Lars
http://www.raincitymusic.com
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kalyan 261 posts
kalyan
I think one of the great pulls of the kirtan scene is that all can participate. I see many people who have led full and busy lives and never even thought of music as a part of it , then once introduced kirtan found that they just love to sing and play music in a group. Though there are many serious and talented musicians who participate it is in no way a prerequisite ( this is both its strength and its "weakness"). Listeners or observers who have spent much of their lives trying to reach levels of knowledge and technical skill that would get them to a point where they felt ready to preform more "difficult" forms often are bored by the simplicity of the music or irritated at the skill of some participants. We can tend to look down our noses at "folk" music forms but I think we miss the point in doing so much of the time.
Kalyan
Kalyan

goddenmusic.com. musicianmallusa.com facebook.com/goddenmusic
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trippy monkey 4,281 posts
trippy monkey
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gustav 9 posts
gustav
pbercker,

are you telling me I am incapable of 'understanding' what KD is about ?
The guy is a pompous clown with no musical talent of any kind. A loud voice does not make a singer.
I have a lot of respect for the members of this forum who struggle with sitars and tablas in the US and Europe and are prepared to seriously study the music. I have no respect for cheap impostors with huge egos who take people for a ride, misrepresent a culture and have the nerve to charge exorbitant prices for their meagre product. The same applies to all the halfbaked Yoga teachers in the West, many of them have not even been to India and are in no way qualified to teach anything.
Trippy Monkey is right, there are many good singers. Why would anyone want to listen to an American who reduces Hindu bhajans to the level of nursery rhymes ?
Next you are going to tell me the books of Lobsang Rampa are the standard works on Tibetan Buddhism ?
And don't get me started on Yogananda with his ridiculous hodgepodge of Hinduism and Christianity.
Westerners are so gullible. Have you watched the film 'Kumare' ? Watch it !
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martin spaink Senior Member 330 posts
martin spaink
In a period of personal turmoil, when I had to give up everything, I lodged in a big house in Amsterdam where every friday evening they had these 'spiritual' evenings with a lot of bhajan and kirtan singing. I always went out with a book and did not come back in before all of them had gone.
Personally, I don't like it, it's just not for me. The people who attended are often Bhagwani's or some other Guru-sick branch who like to have 'spiritual experiences', it's not much to do with art-music at all, it's people who want to cuddle up close to each other and have wonderful spiritual experiences, magic-carpet rides etc. The whole spiritual wannabee-scene is a huge crowd wanting to be fleeced and lots of folks jump in there to deliver and harvest.
martin
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
martin wrote:
In a period of personal turmoil, when I had to give up everything, I lodged in a big house in Amsterdam where every friday evening they had these 'spiritual' evenings with a lot of bhajan and kirtan singing. I always went out with a book and did not come back in before all of them had gone.
Personally, I don't like it, it's just not for me.
That last sentence is largely how I also feel. Full stop.

However, I don't see the need - nor indeed the basis for the mocking judgment that follows (given that you absented yourself during those events):
martin wrote:
The people who attended are often Bhagwani's or some other Guru-sick branch who like to have 'spiritual experiences', it's not much to do with art-music at all, it's people who want to cuddle up close to each other and have wonderful spiritual experiences, magic-carpet rides etc. The whole spiritual wannabee-scene is a huge crowd wanting to be fleeced and lots of folks jump in there to deliver and harvest.
martin

Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
gustav wrote:
pbercker,

are you telling me I am incapable of 'understanding' what KD is about ?
The guy is a pompous clown with no musical talent of any kind. A loud voice does not make a singer.
I have a lot of respect for the members of this forum who struggle with sitars and tablas in the US and Europe and are prepared to seriously study the music. I have no respect for cheap impostors with huge egos who take people for a ride, misrepresent a culture and have the nerve to charge exorbitant prices for their meagre product. The same applies to all the halfbaked Yoga teachers in the West, many of them have not even been to India and are in no way qualified to teach anything.
Trippy Monkey is right, there are many good singers. Why would anyone want to listen to an American who reduces Hindu bhajans to the level of nursery rhymes ?
Next you are going to tell me the books of Lobsang Rampa are the standard works on Tibetan Buddhism ?
And don't get me started on Yogananda with his ridiculous hodgepodge of Hinduism and Christianity.
Westerners are so gullible. Have you watched the film 'Kumare' ? Watch it !

My objection is that your judgement seems not based on anything but your negative emotional reaction to his music/singing and apparently his "dreadful" American accent. I find it a bit odd that, on the one hand you say that you respect members of this forum who struggle with sitars, tablas, and so on, but apparently you do much respect Krishna Das' struggles with Hindi, and mock his "dreadful American accent" instead!

On what reasonable basis, then, do you judge him to be a "pompous clown", a "cheap impostor" with a "huge ego", or that he is taking "people for a ride", or that he "misrepresents a culture", etc.... ?

On the one hand, your claim that "Westerners are so gullible" strikes me as a hasty generalization (at least that would have been my initial diagnosis in the Critical thinking class I used to teach). On the other hand, it also strikes me as insufficiently general ... why limit it to "westerners"?

Having also often taught philosophy of religion in the past (and I myself being an atheist) I have long ago been inoculated to the inveiglements of the likes of "Kumare", but equally weary of any self-proclaimed "true guardians" of tradition and culture (as Lars usefully puts it).



Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
Lars wrote:
I've never been to one of his concerts, it's not my scene but I know a lot of people that benefit from this type of music. Everyone has value, it just didn't have any for you. People listen to music to enjoy it and so his popularity is a reflection of his value to certain folks.
I'd take issue with this whole 'ancient culture' thing though, Indian music is rooted in old traditions but has constantly changed over the years like everything else does. It's easy to get in the mindset of being a guardian of a sacred and unchangeable ("it's always been this and that") art form or philosophy but it has no basis in reality and by doing this we risk becoming fossilized dullards. We're just on the train brother and its moving with or without us. No judgement here, just my 2 cents.... :wink:

Lars

I concur completely!



Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
A Spiritual and Musical Journey
‘One Track Heart: The Story of Krishna Das,’ a Documentary

http://movies.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/movies/one-track-heart-the-story-of-krishna-das-a-documentary.html?_r=0
Quote:
Yet Krishna Das, having reversed his life’s course several times, is no stereotypical mystic: He wears his Long Island heritage as closely as he does his red flannel and red T-shirts (red being popular among followers of the deity Hanuman, who practice service). Casual, humble and appealing, likely to speak obscenities as well as ideas, he is a thoughtful talker in the lengthy, medium-frame shots in this film, and the images of his youth and time in India offer some visual context.
I note that this particular reviewer is actually critical of this documentary saying that it is " too hagiographic to dive into messy spots, where truth tends to live. YouTube clips can offer as much insight."

And an interview ...

http://onetrackheartmovie.com/sites/default/files/kd-origins-magazine.pdf


For the record, practically none of this floats my boat, and the religious stuff is essentially not my cup of tea, given my analytical, materialistic and atheistic point of view. But nowhere do I find grounds for judging him a "pompous clown", a "cheap fake", "taking people for a ride", etc ....




Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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pbercker 1,451 posts
pbercker
trippy wrote:
Please try Jai Uttal, he's MUCH better imo
His albums are great & he doesn't seem to come across as being too self-indulgent.

Nick
Jai Uttal and Radhanath Das performing Kirtan (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VStDIgRu5JE


This is the same Kirtan "Om Nama Shivaya" that Krishna Das sings in the link above. It's not immediately evident to me that this is "MUCH' better than KD's version.



Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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martin spaink Senior Member 330 posts
martin spaink
Hi Pascal and other forumites,

That's a lot of virtual ink flowing here! I see what you mean, I could have stopped at the full stop, but obviously I did not, because it's not all that simple, and though I do not want to aim at peoples toes and hurt feelings, since we're not on a Bhagwani forum here, I thought I could add what came after the full-stop without sounding vindictive or mean, just very sceptical, because, here, in this case, I really am. The first couple of times these Bhajan and Kirtan singers came on Friday nights, I stayed on, once even got my tanpura out and sang a bit for the group. What put me off, is that they were using superlative terms so often it becomes utterly meaningless. From the impression I must have made singing 15 minutes of Dhrupad alapa, I could easily have gotten the impression from them that I must have been near-enlightened, as I transported them to Nirvana and wherenot. If I was into that kind of thing, I could have worked on them to become their Guruji or something, as they were so hungry for it all. Since however they carried on happily singing off all keys, I made myself scarce and henceforth stayed away.
So I think this is why others above may have used terms as 'gullible' etc. I usually don't like to throw people together in a bunch as in 'them people, they this and they that' but in this craving for 'spiritual surrender' and all that Guru-shit they were all alike, and in this, very gullible. The music, as with KD, is not much more than flakey hippie curried campfire singing, and I am highly allergic to it. But the music is not really the problem, the gullibility is. Of course it can be very nice to just sing together, share each others energy but the pretense that it is all so very spiritual and transporting gives me a sinking feeling. (who walks with his head in the clouds can hurt his toes, or how did it go?)
If at any point I was too outspoken or unkind, please except my apologies!
martin
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