INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Blind Lemon Mike

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 20
Reply with quote  #1 
The Question is in the Title. 

Why is it that quite a few pros play instruments that do not have a manufacturers name on them. 

I noticed that first with Nikhilda's Hiren Roy, but also Shahid Parvez and Budhaditya Mukherjee play Sitars without a label most of the time. 

Kushal Das, Mita Nag and others have Instruments with the Hiren Roy badge on them. 

Why ist that. Who builds those Instruments? Are they Custom Orders? Wouldn't it be good desireable for the makers to have their name on their, as advertisement or to have the artists as "endorsers"? 

kind regards 
Blind Lemon Mike
0
Lars

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,395
Reply with quote  #2 
Some players don't want to advertise for instrument makers and take the labels off. One of the reasons is because a lot of musicians also sell instruments on the side and so don't want students to get them directly, other reasons can be aesthetic, etc. This practice is more common with gandhar pancham players. I never saw that Nikhil Banerjee had done this.
Another thing is that a lot of makers buy the entire body already made. If a player comes along who is rather "thrifty" minded and wants to bargain then oftentimes the maker/fitter of them won't include the label.

Lars

__________________
http://www.raincitymusic.com
0
AM

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #3 
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XSIIkj8wg_s/WO-wR96ZtCI/AAAAAAAAGCE/n6HIe0KeduEDKsqwozX33c6VWMxnBMQYgCLcB/s1600/26-03-2017%2B11%253B37%253B52_stitch2.jpg

Nikhil Banerjee did remove the label later on.


0
DrKashyap

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 271
Reply with quote  #4 
I have heard one eminent sitar player saying "why should i advertise maker for free ? when he does not do a free work for my sitar? " .. Justified in some cases..  Its a complex blame game.. few artists also want the things free without any reciprocation. 
0
cwroyds

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,147
Reply with quote  #5 
Badges also fall off.
They are often only held in by two little tacks.
0
Blind Lemon Mike

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 20
Reply with quote  #6 
I really have never seen a photo of Banerjee's Hiren Roy where the Label is still on there, although he says himself that it is a Hiren Roy in Interviews. 

I know of a Druhpad Singer who sells Mirja Tanpuras without the Label, although it is quite obvious who made them. 


There are 2 more questions, related to this one, that i often ask myself: 

1. What is the financial situation of the average pro player? Do they life primarily from teaching, performing, or a combination. Wouldn't a endorsement be something that both side are profiting from? 

2. About the pre-made bodies that Lars talks about. Who actually are the guys in Kalkutta that make those bodies. And what makers are currently still making their Sitars entirely in-house? Kanailal and Brothers probably did it, until they closed. I assume Barun Roy does it? I heard that Radhey Shyam Sharma also does some of his higher priced ones completely in house, but not all of them, but this might be wrong? Maybe we should do a thread about this and combine all information about the current market situation, especially those of you who have a lot of experience and also trade with instruments could shed light on this. 

kind regards from germany 






0
Lars

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,395
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike
I really have never seen a photo of Banerjee's Hiren Roy where the Label is still on there, although he says himself that it is a Hiren Roy in Interviews. 

I know of a Druhpad Singer who sells Mirja Tanpuras without the Label, although it is quite obvious who made them. This is the music business for these folks, nothing wrong with it if all involved are in agreement. Miraj tanpuras have different craftsmen who have different specialties. The 'maker' is the end person who arranges everything. These folks often double as makers and do other work as well such as shopkeepers, farmers, etc. You'd be surprised, go there and see.....


There are 2 more questions, related to this one, that i often ask myself: 

1. What is the financial situation of the average pro player? Not great except for the top handful. Do they life primarily from teaching, performing, or a combination. Yes whatever they can do. Wouldn't a endorsement be something that both side are profiting from? No it doesn't work that way, typically an endorsement would mean the musician is getting a cut of the profit usually to the disadvantage of the maker.

2. About the pre-made bodies that Lars talks about. Who actually are the guys in Kalkutta that make those bodies. They work in outlying villages in several spots. You can see pictures on my FB page. there is one who is top notch and a few others are generally good...sometimes....

And what makers are currently still making their Sitars entirely in-house? The only one I know of is Suman Karmakar of P&Bros although if rushed on a big order he will outsource but better to wait 6 months and get something great. Sengupta also does a lot of his own body work but not carving or penwork. 

Kanailal and Brothers probably did it, until they closed. There were many variations of this 'label' and the family members had different specialties. Usually the final fitting wasn't great but the structures and decoration were top notch.

I assume Barun Roy does it? No he subs out everything now except the fitting, he also had a very nice structure person who retired a number of years ago and also all the wood his father had stored ran out.

I heard that Radhey Shyam Sharma also does some of his higher priced ones completely in house, but not all of them, but this might be wrong? No he's using Calcutta bodies, his structure maker (Mohan) was very talented and sadly he died within the last year. He didn't train anyone and no one wants to go into the field there as the pay is low.

Maybe we should do a thread about this and combine all information about the current market situation, especially those of you who have a lot of experience and also trade with instruments could shed light on this. We just did [wink]

kind regards from germany 







__________________
http://www.raincitymusic.com
0
Blind Lemon Mike

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 20
Reply with quote  #8 
Thanks Lars for the great insights can give. 

I have a Miraj Tanpura, the label sais Ahmadsaheb A. Sitarmaker, the finishing is rather poor, but it sounds fantastic. I didn't mean that to be negative, is just was always wondering why they take the label off when they do that. I would assume, if you want to sell to westerners speficially the resale value with the label ist higher and genereates more interest. Maybe a cultural difference. 

As for the pre-made bodies. On one Hand this seems to be somewhat preferable, since then an expert in his field is doing each step of the building process, like in a small manufactory context. On the other Hand these other people involved in the process do not get enough credit, really. 

Until I read about this in this forum in another thread, I always assumed those guys are basically standalone builders, havein maybe a few employees, but in-house.  
I  also wonder if there is any reason then, to aspire for instance to a Hiren Roy Instrument, when you could get basically a body made by the same guy fitted by another maker, presumably of the same quality, or probably of varying quality, no matter from whome you buy. Are the big names still desireable because fitting is such an important part in the Sound of a Sitar? 

Also: Is this a more recent development or has it always been like that ? 

My Sitar from Radhey Shyam Sharma for instance is from the late 90s/early 2000s. So probably the basic structure was made by an entirely different guy than the sitars he sells now, but as he fitted it, both share the same Label. 

kind regards 
Blind Lemon Mike

0
Lars

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,395
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike
Thanks Lars for the great insights can give. 

I have a Miraj Tanpura, the label sais Ahmadsaheb A. Sitarmaker, the finishing is rather poor, but it sounds fantastic. I didn't mean that to be negative, is just was always wondering why they take the label off when they do that. I would assume, if you want to sell to westerners speficially the resale value with the label ist higher and genereates more interest. Maybe a cultural difference. There are big differences culturally, absolutely. To understand it by Western standards is probably pointless [smile]and generally speaking both sides don't really understand each other. Westerners sometimes tend to deify things that are unknown and think of it all as some perfect mystical process whereas it's actually a practical thing to make an instrument that just involves time, skill, good materials, and an ethical approach to your craft. So finding all of these factors in one place at an acceptable level is the main challenge.
As for the pre-made bodies. On one Hand this seems to be somewhat preferable, since then an expert in his field is doing each step of the building process, like in a small manufactory context. On the other Hand these other people involved in the process do not get enough credit, really. 

Until I read about this in this forum in another thread, I always assumed those guys are basically standalone builders, havein maybe a few employees, but in-house.  
I  also wonder if there is any reason then, to aspire for instance to a Hiren Roy Instrument, when you could get basically a body made by the same guy fitted by another maker, presumably of the same quality, or probably of varying quality, no matter from whome you buy. Are the big names still desireable because fitting is such an important part in the Sound of a Sitar? Fitting is where the magic happens. And makers like Barun Roy and the Rikhiram brothers are very good at it. Of course the proper base is needed so the difficult part is finding them where all the things are good together. What I look for is more structural integrity as I'll adjust the fitting to what I like or think it should be. You can always modify the jawari and fret setting, but not always the structure or quality of the wood, etc. 

Also: Is this a more recent development or has it always been like that ? Things were more in-house a long time ago but when the popularity of Indian music exploded then it changed. One person can't do everything and survive on just a few instruments a year.

My Sitar from Radhey Shyam Sharma for instance is from the late 90s/early 2000s. So probably the basic structure was made by an entirely different guy than the sitars he sells now, but as he fitted it, both share the same Label. If you send me pictures of it I can tell you if Mohan made the structure.

kind regards 
Blind Lemon Mike


__________________
http://www.raincitymusic.com
0
Nick Proctor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 206
Reply with quote  #10 
MMM Some here will know I have the OPPOSITE problem with MY sitars from India !?!?!?
So many I've bought over the last years or so have had 'wrong' nameplates on them but then I don't buy ANY sitar re plates. If I like it, I buy it, end of story.

Nick
0
Nick Proctor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 206
Reply with quote  #11 

He DOES have something between the first 2 pegs at the top, though.

Nick NB 8 Stringer.jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (1).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (2).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (3).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (6).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (8).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (9).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (12).jpg  8STRINGER 11 NOV 18 (11).jpg Mine looks very similar too.

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.