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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #16 
I'm a 'non-Indian' and around 90% of my listening of music is of the vocal idioms. Perhaps the question should be "do instrument players of Indian origin predominantly listen to vocal music?"
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
I'm a 'non-Indian' and around 90% of my listening of music is of the vocal idioms. Perhaps the question should be "do instrument players of Indian origin predominantly listen to vocal music?"
...also a non-asian who listenstens to vocal and instrumental ICM about 50/50.

It may be true; I can't recall the last time, if ever, I've discussed ICM vocal with another non-asian. The larger number of Western fans of ICM I've encountered in the States aren't terribly familiar with much beyond sitar and tabla and the basic dance styles. Hollywood/Bollywood Indian-theme musical movies with western settings and familiar actors does appear to be making headway, however. :roll:

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aanaddha"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
I'm a 'non-Indian' and around 90% of my listening of music is of the vocal idioms. Perhaps the question should be "do instrument players of Indian origin predominantly listen to vocal music?"
...also a non-asian who listenstens to vocal and instrumental ICM about 50/50.

It may be true; I can't recall the last time, if ever, I've discussed ICM vocal with another non-asian. The larger number of Western fans of ICM I've encountered in the States aren't terribly familiar with much beyond sitar and tabla and the basic dance styles. Hollywood/Bollywood Indian-theme musical movies with western settings and familiar actors does appear to be making headway, however. :roll:
Well I wouldn't categorise myself as 'non-asian' either, but yeah there does seem to be more 'occidental' looking people at instrumental concerts than at vocal ones.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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luvdasitar

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hey!! I am an Indian and I listen to sitar the most because
(1) I Love it
(2) I love it...
(3) I love it!!

I think most "non-indian" people listen to it because they can draw their own interpretation of the emotion in the raaga without having to grapple with the meaning of words.

But I also love vocal music. Apart from the usual suspects Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Ustad Amir Khan et al, I am also unashamedly a fan of Pandit Kumar Gandharva. People usually never mention him in the same breath as other stalwarts, I have always wondered why though ?
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
Well I wouldn't categorise myself as 'non-asian' either, but yeah there does seem to be more 'occidental' looking people at instrumental concerts than at vocal ones.
My apologies for the misnomer. It's not clear sometimes when refering to asian/south asian/eastern parts of the world. I certainly wouldn't refer to my Canadian or Australian aquaintances as 'English' the same as I would'nt dare refer to my Pakistani, Afghani, or Bangladeshi musical friends and vocalists as 'Indian'.

There certainly must be quite a few people of south Indian origin who prefer to listen to instrumental music than to vocal HCM.

btw - is Australia an asian continent? What origin are the people of New Zealand regarded?

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "luvdasitar"
I am also unashamedly a fan of Pandit Kumar Gandharva. People usually never mention him in the same breath as other stalwarts, I have always wondered why though ?
Yes, why?

(-an unashamed fan of Pt. Ajoy Chakrabarthy)

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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "luvdasitar"
Hey!! I am an Indian and I listen to sitar the most because
(1) I Love it
(2) I love it...
(3) I love it!!

I think most "non-indian" people listen to it because they can draw their own interpretation of the emotion in the raaga without having to grapple with the meaning of words.
There's a lot in that. No-one wants the hassle of grappling with a language (or two) when they can just hear/play the note with no aspect of self/alienation from the culture through language entering into it. Also the history of the colonialisation by R.S. and others means sitar has a head start.

But above all sitar is SEXY!

This is so basic - the phallic thing is there - men lust after the size of it, players always seem to hanker after moving up to an even bigger one - surbahar....

And players can spend so much time just tweaking the instrument instead of serious practice. No excuses with vocal.... all you can do is get down to the job.

Sarangi, sarod and the rest just can't compete with all this.

Women - well I can't speak for them, but believe me, in my experience it's the sitar player who always gets the girl!, and vocal of course comes nowhere, especially without any visual aids or props, no mystique of tuning, oiling, etc etc.

Shallow? You bet! But more than a grain of truth in all this.
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aanaddha"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
Well I wouldn't categorise myself as 'non-asian' either, but yeah there does seem to be more 'occidental' looking people at instrumental concerts than at vocal ones.
My apologies for the misnomer. It's not clear sometimes when refering to asian/south asian/eastern parts of the world. I certainly wouldn't refer to my Canadian or Australian aquaintances as 'English' the same as I would'nt dare refer to my Pakistani, Afghani, or Bangladeshi musical friends and vocalists as 'Indian'.

There certainly must be quite a few people of south Indian origin who prefer to listen to instrumental music than to vocal HCM.

btw - is Australia an asian continent? What origin are the people of New Zealand regarded?
Just another small but important correction, it should be said "Afghan" and not "Afghani" when referring to the people. The country is Afghanistan, (that is afghan+estan; land of the Afghan, a country btw which is smack bang in the middle of Asia), thus it would be correct (if somewhat a political statement) to refer to people as "Afghanistani" just as it is correct to refer to people as Pakistani, or Bangladeshi, but "Afghan" is the better term. "Afghani" is reserved for things pertaining to the Afghan people, like the currency or food etc...

Australia is a continent of its own, New Zealand is classified as part of the Asian continent, IIRC, but the majority of the people are of Western descent, and so both are regarded as part of the British/Western world. I'm an Afghan who's now lived two thirds of his life in Australia, so Afghan-Australian is probably an apt description.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "luvdasitar"
Hey!! I am an Indian and I listen to sitar the most because
(1) I Love it
(2) I love it...
(3) I love it!!

I think most "non-indian" people listen to it because they can draw their own interpretation of the emotion in the raaga without having to grapple with the meaning of words.
There's a lot in that. No-one wants the hassle of grappling with a language (or two) when they can just hear/play the note with no aspect of self/alienation from the culture through language entering into it. Also the history of the colonialisation by R.S. and others means sitar has a head start.

But above all sitar is SEXY!

This is so basic - the phallic thing is there - men lust after the size of it, players always seem to hanker after moving up to an even bigger one - surbahar....

And players can spend so much time just tweaking the instrument instead of serious practice. No excuses with vocal.... all you can do is get down to the job.

Sarangi, sarod and the rest just can't compete with all this.

Women - well I can't speak for them, but believe me, in my experience it's the sitar player who always gets the girl!, and vocal of course comes nowhere, especially without any visual aids or props, no mystique of tuning, oiling, etc etc.

Shallow? You bet! But more than a grain of truth in all this.

So the actual music takes a distant back seat in the proceedings, eh?

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan

So the actual music takes a distant back seat in the proceedings, eh?
Except in the car....

If my own experience is anything to go by, I think for a young westerner certainly the imagination is more likely to be fired by sitar than some other instruments or vocal music.

I first met Hindustani ICM in the 60s at a Vilayat Khan concert. I remember being entranced by the colour of the costumes, the strange glittering instruments, the mystery of tuning and pampering these, and the "sound". I remember nothing of the actual music.

Whether if I had first attended a vocal concert I would have had the same deep impression and desire that took me on later to learn more and move away from sitar appreciation only I don't know.

Certainly you have to work a lot harder at an understanding of vocal music, and it is a lot harder for me to imagine how I could myself practise vocal music coming from outside the ICM cultural background.
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luvdasitar

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Reply with quote  #26 
Having said that though, I feel to be a great sitar or instrument player (please note Ia said Great not good), one should have a knowledge of vocal music. And for gayaki ang, it is imperative to have learnt khayal.
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talasiga

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
......New Zealand is classified as part of the Asian continent, IIRC, but the majority of the people are of Western descent, and so both are regarded as part of the British/Western world. I'm an Afghan who's now lived two thirds of his life in Australia, so Afghan-Australian is probably an apt description.
This thing about
New Zealand
being part of the Asian continent is absolutely incorrect.

New Zealand is a group of islands independent of any continent and they are the most distant of the world's LARGE islands from any continental mass.

For someone who has lived so long in Australia you should know better, especially as NZ is our very prominent neighbour to the east and NZers are a prominent partner in our post colonial history as can be seen by the term ANZAC.

Even the most ignorant of Australians and New Zealanders know that Afghanistan is not an island in the Bay of Bengal despite the fact that we sometimes get Sri Lankan refugees arriving on our West coast in tattered boats........

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "talasiga"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
......New Zealand is classified as part of the Asian continent, IIRC, but the majority of the people are of Western descent, and so both are regarded as part of the British/Western world. I'm an Afghan who's now lived two thirds of his life in Australia, so Afghan-Australian is probably an apt description.
This thing about
New Zealand
being part of the Asian continent is absolutely incorrect.

New Zealand is a group of islands independent of any continent and they are the most distant of the world's LARGE islands from any continental mass.

For someone who has lived so long in Australia you should know better, especially as NZ is our very prominent neighbour to the east and NZers are a prominent partner in our post colonial history as can be seen by the term ANZAC.

Even the most ignorant of Australians and New Zealanders know that Afghanistan is not an island in the Bay of Bengal despite the fact that we sometimes get Sri Lankan refugees arriving on our West coast in tattered boats........
Do you understand that "IIRC" means "if I recall correctly", and thus I had stated at the outset that I wasn't sure? But still your reason that NZ being "the most distant of the world's LARGE islands from any continental mass" and therefore on that basis not part of a continent is utter rubbish. Java is just as far from a continental "landmass" but it is still classified as part of Asia (but in fact, it is closer to Australian "continental landmass" than it is to the Asian one). But I guess you know that geologically, Europe and Asia are one continent and India is not even part of Asia, not even as a 'sub-contitent', and that half of Japan is part of North America, yes?

p.s. And no, the average Australian and New Zealander does not know his arse from his elbow when it comes to geography, so spare me the BS and your meaningless connections with boat people and whatever you were intending it to be connected to.

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luvdasitar

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Reply with quote  #29 
I was just listening to a classic "Ab tohe jaane naahee doongee" by Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and it kinda reinforced my belief that there is a disconnect for people who can not understand the meaning and more importantly the cultural context in vocal music.
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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "luvdasitar"
I was just listening to a classic "Ab tohe jaane naahee doongee" by Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and it kinda reinforced my belief that there is a disconnect for people who can not understand the meaning and more importantly the cultural context in vocal music.
I've no cultural or linguistic link to India myself, however these days I have little time for other than a select group of favourite instrumentalists but get a heap of pleasure out of listening to vocal music.

So it's a pity to hear you describe a distancing or "disconnect".

Hmm - what to do...

I don't know what version of BGAK's thumri you are listening to so can't say anything specific about the piece, but would be amazed if there wasn't a host of musical interest there to keep you interested, he was such a great performer.

My feeling is although my listening might be enhanced by understanding of the language it isn't vital, in fact would be a small part of my enjoyment.

Firstly it is doubtful in many khyal performances whether all listeners hear all the words as they are performed, just as an opera aria's words are not necessarily heard correctly by a listener, even if the language is the listener's mother tongue.

The words of the bandish are not extensive however in any event, and in most cases become subservient to the music. It is the music - the raga/bhava which convey the rasa, and in most cases I don't feel any distancing from this, just as I should not feel distanced from an instrumental performance. It is a lot easier when starting out just to ignore any linguistic problem and regard the voice as an instrument - that really isn't so hard.

With thumri and then, more, bhajans we are probably approaching an area where cultural background starts becoming more important to appreciation or enjoyment perhaps, but I am not really understanding regarding vocal music generally why cultural context is an issue for anyone who admires classical music as played on sitar or other instruments.
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