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Surbaharplayer

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Greg"
Please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding... ops: ..all my riyazz will now be performed blindfolded... 8)
Actually.. I do my ryaaz with eyes closed from time to time... just to see how far I get without screwing up... :wink:
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Gyurme

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Reply with quote  #17 
Is using your eyes a combination of personal tastes, the mood,nature and skill of the player at a given moment to the relation of his/her instrument, and if the force is with him/her?
What about the blind guitarist Jose Feliciano ( many will recall his cover version of 'Come on Baby Light My Fire'), I think we can conclude that he didn't use his eyes to see where he was at and was a brilliant player, and for instruments relating more to this forum there is the blind Nepalese sitar and surbahar player Narendra Bataju:
http://bolingo69.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/narendra-bataju-sitar-and-surbahar-1980.html
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vbnautilus

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Reply with quote  #18 
If you are using your eyes, it means you are using visual feedback to adjust your motor output, which necessarily takes additional time.

I recognize it as necessary at some stages of learning, but I see the ideal as being able to act based on ballistic movements and tactile feedback, since it is going to be ultimately more efficient.
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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #19 
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Originally Posted by "vbnautilus"
If you are using your eyes, it means you are using visual feedback to adjust your motor output, which necessarily takes additional time.

I recognize it as necessary at some stages of learning, but I see the ideal as being able to act based on ballistic movements and tactile feedback, since it is going to be ultimately more efficient.
I urge you to please explain what you mean, exactly, in plain English, what you mean concerning the above highlighted areas.

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AllenDS

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "OM
I urge you to please explain what you mean, exactly, in plain English, what you mean concerning the above highlighted areas.
I was interested too, so I looked up this term:

ballistic movement
[bəlis′tik]
a high-velocity musculoskeletal movement, such as a tennis serve or boxing punch, requiring reciprocal coordination of agonistic and antagonistic muscles.

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DreamingPanther

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Reply with quote  #21 
Personally I keep one eye on the cat.
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vbnautilus

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "OM
Quote:
Originally Posted by "vbnautilus"
If you are using your eyes, it means you are using visual feedback to adjust your motor output, which necessarily takes additional time.

I recognize it as necessary at some stages of learning, but I see the ideal as being able to act based on ballistic movements and tactile feedback, since it is going to be ultimately more efficient.
I urge you to please explain what you mean, exactly, in plain English, what you mean concerning the above highlighted areas.
Think of a ballistic missile.... it is propelled towards its target with an aimed blast from takeoff, but its not really controlled once its in the air, it will land where it lands depending on how good the initial shot was...compared with a guided missile that has to has to hone in on its target through feedback loops as it gets closer to the target (we're coming in a little short, give it some more gas... no thats too much... ok there we go...). That feedback process requires a slightly slower landing speed to accomplish. A ballistic movement is simple, like a quick punch -- think of striking your finger from Sa right up to Pa -- boom, its there. You feel the correct landing spot when it hits, but you're not using the eyes to microadjust the trajectory as you get closer to the target.
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povster

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Surbaharplayer"
I expercience always the opposite. When I switched to veena I missed the gaps between S and R and Pa and Dha and was confronted with a sea of frets. When doing murchana I really struggled. I noticed that, instead of looking at the frets, just "staring" at them (at almost a subconsius level) my playing improved. Hard to explain. It's almost the same thing when you get "into the zone" when playing; it seems your limitations seem to vanish.

I got my first concert coming up in april and am trying to figure a way to get into this state of mind on stage. :?

P.s. there was a topic on, I think Mythbusters, about juggling. When you try to follow the balls you're bound to fail... The staring made it possible to juggle with more ease (they somehow did this by measuring the ammount of eye-movement from the jugglers)
I sometimes use visual cues amidst the sea of frets on a rudra vin. My main sa fret is just in front of the high chikari post so that is an automatic reference. On the Shuddha Gha, Pa and high Sa frets I have glued a small, thin whitish gemstone on the fret edge as a reference. Not unlike those inlaid dots on a guitar neck. Most of the time I don't need these references but they definitely come in handy. I have no qualms about using them if needed.

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sraman

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Reply with quote  #24 
The discussion is very interesting. The experienced musicians have a three dimensional (spatial) feel of the keys, the frets and the configuration of the instrument. It is like driving a car. The machine or any machine/music instrument will become part of your body or an extension of the hands and one does not have to think at all.The hands can do what the brain wants, it is a matter of experience.It is a matter of establishing the connecting wires with in the white matter of the brain. This is easy to do from childhood, takes very long time when the training is commenced late in life, like me .The ragas are like pattern recognition.
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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sraman"
The discussion is very interesting. The experienced musicians have a three dimensional (spatial) feel of the keys, the frets and the configuration of the instrument. It is like driving a car. The machine or any machine/music instrument will become part of your body or an extension of the hands and one does not have to think at all.The hands can do what the brain wants, it is a matter of experience.It is a matter of establishing the connecting wires with in the white matter of the brain. This is easy to do from childhood, takes very long time when the training is commenced late in life, like me .The ragas are like pattern recognition.
This, I can buy!... Especially the latter part--> "... This is easy to do from childhood, takes very long time when the training is commenced late in life, like me." ..........Brother, ain't that the Gods-honest living truth!

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Let's hope 2016 is less violent and that people discover the soothing influence of ICM. Hari OM!
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povster

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "OM
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sraman"
The discussion is very interesting. The experienced musicians have a three dimensional (spatial) feel of the keys, the frets and the configuration of the instrument. It is like driving a car. The machine or any machine/music instrument will become part of your body or an extension of the hands and one does not have to think at all.The hands can do what the brain wants, it is a matter of experience.It is a matter of establishing the connecting wires with in the white matter of the brain. This is easy to do from childhood, takes very long time when the training is commenced late in life, like me .The ragas are like pattern recognition.
This, I can buy!... Especially the latter part--> "... This is easy to do from childhood, takes very long time when the training is commenced late in life, like me." ..........Brother, ain't that the Gods-honest living truth!
In theory this may be true but in practice not so much. Watch vids of even the masters and there will be the occasional look to the fretboard to "refresh". Absolutely no harm in that. Part of the problem is that as you play, the instrument gets adjusted (especially the rudra vin played in the traditional style) from time to time. The body shifts, the instrument shifts. You need to re-orient yourself. The fretboard also provides a place to momentarily "meditate" or "ponder", if you will.

Those three white markers I placed on my rudra vin frets were necessary in the beginning. Having practiced sitar for 36 years I needed to create those reference points while I was getting used to a new instrument that was fully fretted. It is running on 3 or so years I have been practicing the rudra vin and my use of those dots is pretty much occasional and peripheral.

Then again, sitar was the first instrument I ever tried and I was 23 years old when I started it, so perhaps it is like a child having a much easier time learning a foreign language.

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Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
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