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Blind Lemon Mike

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Reply with quote  #46 
[rolleyes]

is there a function here where you can complain about users.. ?

This is annoying as fuck...
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trippymonkey@gmail.com

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Reply with quote  #47 
What is? This post is finished as we've all given our opinions.
Have you not, yet?
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Tomek Regulski

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Reply with quote  #48 
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So i would suppose he does not think of those double-stops as "intervals" , like say ,a major third, but as a combination of swaras an there role within the raga-structure...


From my understanding, that is spot in. Also, there are many examples of great artists who use these techniques to varying degrees. 

Krishna Bhatt is another sitar player who makes great use of playing double stops during jhalla at times, as well as "arpeggios" in other parts of the performance. Nikhil Banerjee and Ali Akbar Khan made use of "arpeggios" for sure, and I think I remember hearing NB using double stops in jhalla at times, though I can not point to specific recordings. 

Of course, in the vocal realm, Ramakant and Umakant Gundecha developed this practice to what I understand to be unprecedented levels. I have seen them go into epic episodes of contrapuntal singing that completely suspended time while maintaining the mood of the raga - absolutely stunning stuff. 

Then there are countless examples in sitar, rudra veena, sarod, etc where, when the artist is playing phrases that move between two strings (i.e. a phrase that moves between Re, and Pa, on the sitar) and might strike a note on one string, let it ring out while striking another note on the other string, and then allow the harmony to sustain. 

From what little I have heard of older styles, it does seem like this may have started coming about in the middle of the 20th century and developed on from that point, but I am no historian, so I'll leave it there. 

I have had an opportunity to ask about what goes into choosing the harmonies, and the answer has consistently been to simply use what you know of the raga, and make choices that do not break the mood. In any of the above situations, the goal is to suspend/intensify a certain tension point in the raga, perhaps progressing through a few stages if the structure allows for that, and then releasing to a resting point. 

It's definitely not something that can be approached casually (not saying that anyone suggested it was); but the result, as we've seen, can be rewarding. 


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barend

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Reply with quote  #49 
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Originally Posted by Tomek Regulski


From my understanding, that is spot in. Also, there are many examples of great artists who use these techniques to varying degrees. 

Krishna Bhatt is another sitar player who makes great use of playing double stops during jhalla at times, as well as "arpeggios" in other parts of the performance. Nikhil Banerjee and Ali Akbar Khan made use of "arpeggios" for sure, and I think I remember hearing NB using double stops in jhalla at times, though I can not point to specific recordings. 

Of course, in the vocal realm, Ramakant and Umakant Gundecha developed this practice to what I understand to be unprecedented levels. I have seen them go into epic episodes of contrapuntal singing that completely suspended time while maintaining the mood of the raga - absolutely stunning stuff. 

Then there are countless examples in sitar, rudra veena, sarod, etc where, when the artist is playing phrases that move between two strings (i.e. a phrase that moves between Re, and Pa, on the sitar) and might strike a note on one string, let it ring out while striking another note on the other string, and then allow the harmony to sustain. 

From what little I have heard of older styles, it does seem like this may have started coming about in the middle of the 20th century and developed on from that point, but I am no historian, so I'll leave it there. 

I have had an opportunity to ask about what goes into choosing the harmonies, and the answer has consistently been to simply use what you know of the raga, and make choices that do not break the mood. In any of the above situations, the goal is to suspend/intensify a certain tension point in the raga, perhaps progressing through a few stages if the structure allows for that, and then releasing to a resting point. 

It's definitely not something that can be approached casually (not saying that anyone suggested it was); but the result, as we've seen, can be rewarding. 




Yes these are my observations too. It's just a different and fresh and more modern sound. I think it are even some western influences that are incorporated by some Indian classical players. They might have heard that sound in western music and liked it and are trying to incorporate it in their music.

I have heard gayaki violin player Kala Ramnath play fragments in a raga that sounded very Bach like. Chord like arpeggiated sequences with string crossings like western violin players do. It gives a surprising and original sound in an Indian classical performance. I like this stuff!
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Blind Lemon Mike

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Reply with quote  #50 
@Tomek Regulski

I also think i have heard it with Nikhilda at times... 

Thanks for your great comment. I will have a listen at the vocal-performers you mentioned. I makes total sense that you would find it there.... 

As far as Sitar goes, intonation ist of course very problematic as the frets are not really compensted for that, once you go higher up the neck, so i guess options are limited. 

As for the  "blending" of notes, ringing into each other, i reclall Shahid Parvez doing it in Yaman. He plays Tivra-Ma on the main string, Re on the Sa-String and the Ga of the Chickari and blends them together in an arpeggiated way... 

kind regards from Germany
stay healthy. 

Michael
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Tomek Regulski

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Reply with quote  #51 
Yeah, with sitar (and surbahar) you just have to get used to the intonation issues of each raga and learn if the second string needs to be bent a little to be in tune. It is totally possible with practice in alap/jor, though, if that ends up being something you want to develop for your style. 

Yes - M-R in Yaman is a powerful one, also in Shuddha Sarang with some care for the aroh/avroh.

Yes, definitely explore recordings of the Gundecha Brothers - they do a fair amount of overlapping phrases in any performance, but every now and then they do something more extensive. 

Enjoy! 

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barend

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Reply with quote  #52 
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Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike
@Tomek Regulski

IAs for the  "blending" of notes, ringing into each other, i reclall Shahid Parvez doing it in Yaman. He plays Tivra-Ma on the main string, Re on the Sa-String and the Ga of the Chickari and blends them together in an arpeggiated way...


Yes that sort of arpeggio chord like thing is pretty common. In alap and jor especially. Love it. Even Vilayat Khan uses this a lot. So it's not restricted by gharana.
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barend

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Reply with quote  #53 
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Originally Posted by Tomek Regulski

Krishna Bhatt is another sitar player who makes great use of playing double stops during jhalla at times, as well as "arpeggios" in other parts of the performance.


Just came across this video. It's a must watch. It has some great left hand close ups.
from 2:40 use of third finger for Sa string
from 9:32 good example of third finger meends
from 46:15 excellent double stops guitar like parts. Love this!!

I think we can now conclude that third finger use and meend is a valid sitar technique. And even double stops if not overused.

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Tomek Regulski

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Reply with quote  #54 
Aha, absolutely fantastic, especially the double stops. Yeah, Krishnaji is a perfect example of someone who has both unquestionable mastery over the traditional forms and techniques, as well as an openness to new ideas. His fusion projects with Jody Stecher are amazing - Barend, if you haven't heard them yet, then those will be right up your alley. They're on YouTube.
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Blind Lemon Mike

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Reply with quote  #55 
@barend I've known the video before, but somehow didn't remember the double-stops there. 

Thanks for posting, timestamps are great...

regards
Michael
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barend

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomek Regulski
Aha, absolutely fantastic, especially the double stops. Yeah, Krishnaji is a perfect example of someone who has both unquestionable mastery over the traditional forms and techniques, as well as an openness to new ideas. His fusion projects with Jody Stecher are amazing - Barend, if you haven't heard them yet, then those will be right up your alley. They're on YouTube.


Thanks. I have just listened to the Rasa album on YouTube. Never heard of that project. The sitar playing is great and it is nice to hear the sitar in this context. But somehow the mix of sitar with folky country does not do it for me.
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Tomek Regulski

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Reply with quote  #57 
In that case, please pardon my boldness in assuming to know your taste!![biggrin]
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barend

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Reply with quote  #58 
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Originally Posted by Tomek Regulski
In that case, please pardon my boldness in assuming to know your taste!![biggrin]


Haha...no problem. Keep em coming. I like all kind of stuff and fusion. Only this combination was not my thing.

Was checking and playing along with some Ashok Pathak videos again today. He is also using the third finger a lot, also for meends. As well as doing double stops and off course harmonics and open tunings of the bass strings. Tuning his Kharaj to ga for example.

I always liked to explore these things and different non traditional sounds and techniques on sitar. I do so on my other instruments as well. See where it can take me in terms of sound color and exploring all the possibilities and limits of the instrument.
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