INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
Sillofthedoor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
The physics behind sympathetic vibration are very complex and are related to quantum entanglement. There are books out there that deal with this subject, but they are not exactly fun, light reading.
Really ? quantaum physics of sympathetic sitar strings/ can you point me in the right direction on this? I am writing on the subject of how sounds scale up and down fractally from quantum levels and the implications for consciousness, time, and well, life the universe and everything really..
0
Three5Seven

Registered:
Posts: 34
Reply with quote  #17 
I think it's just standard resonance acoustics at play. Now that I have a nice new sitar, I've been comparing it to my cruddy old one and have deduced that tarif strings resonate when the following conditions are met:

1. The sitar is constructed of wood thick enough to transmit a solid resonance, but not so thick in the tabli that it dampens it.

2. The frequency played must precisely match the frequency of one or more of the tarif strings.

3. The strings must be of the appropriate gauge and tension. Even tuned strings will not resonate if they are too loose. This goes for the tarif strings as well as the other strings.

4. The instrument must be played beyond a threshold volume; a cheap quiet sitar does not generate enough sound to transmit frequency to tarif strings.

5. The jawari must be properly fitted so that it has good contact with the tabli, thereby transmitting the sound through the instrument.

Even with all of these factors, I still can't entirely figure out why some sound and some generally don't. Notes that are on the octave or at perfect intervals have the added resonance of the playing strings, so that may help make those more ringy. But I kinda get the idea now that I have one in hand that actually works.

Thanks Sitar Heroes!
0
CarbonSitars

Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Sillofthedoor"
Quote:
The physics behind sympathetic vibration are very complex and are related to quantum entanglement. There are books out there that deal with this subject, but they are not exactly fun, light reading.
Really ? quantaum physics of sympathetic sitar strings/ can you point me in the right direction on this? I am writing on the subject of how sounds scale up and down fractally from quantum levels and the implications for consciousness, time, and well, life the universe and everything really..
Sympathetic resonance is related to, but not a function of quantum mechanics because the mathematics involved is very similar to that used to calculate classical acoustic resonance. My point there was that it is complex. A good starting point in understanding quantum resonance would be any good introductory text on quantum mechanics, wavefunctions, and quantum harmonic oscillators, if you are truly interested. Most of it is far beyond any practical discussion in how it's related to sitars though.

As Three5Seven stated, the factors are much simpler. With regards to why some resonate and others do not, it is often because of a non-uniform mass of the wood and/or thickness of the neck, tabli, and toomba. Dead spots are a common thing in guitars and basses as well, where certain fretted notes do not sustain as long as the rest of the instrument's range. Adding mass in the correct areas along the neck and headstock will alleviate the problem somewhat, but it's ultimately up to the individual luthier to work out the correct design beforehand because it's so difficult to fix after the fact.
0
Sillofthedoor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #19 
No I thought a treatise on the interplay between quanta and sitar strings was a bit much to hope for just thought you might know some good books on the subject though.
0
CarbonSitars

Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Sillofthedoor"
No I thought a treatise on the interplay between quanta and sitar strings was a bit much to hope for just thought you might know some good books on the subject though.
I would love to see a book on the science of the sitar! There have been a few physicists who have studied the mechanics of sitar and tamboura bridges, and their papers, along with a short explanation of how they work can be found cited in the book, The Physics of Musical Instruments.

Not to get off topic, but another interesting but related topic is the relationship between tuning systems such as just intonation versus equal temperament. Composer Terry Riley has a hypothesis that the West's recent (~past 120 years) use of equal temperament is what has led much of western music to become faster and nervous sounding compared to more just intonation-leaning Indian music because of the dissonant intervals used as a compromise for the ability to play in different keys. A brief discussion can be found here:
http://www.ex-tempore.org/Volx1/hudson/hudson.htm
0
Sillofthedoor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
western music to become faster and nervous sounding
Now I just mentioned that to fossesitar on another topic.

I might have lifted off Terry Riley anyway...

thanks for the ideas. I'm not planning a book on the science of the sitar but I will chase the books you suggested to see if I can entwine it in the subject somewhat.

Mine is a new view of the physics of sound in more metaphysical terms, how sound operates from a perspective of this world being a product of consciousness, (rather than consciousness being a product of the world) and how sound is a part of the creative process of existence. This involves how sound scales up and down fractally from the biggest to the smallest and beyond, usually known as resonance. It leads into the role of sound to create each moment and also more practical implications like sound for healing and focusing consciousness....

Anyway thanks....
0
Three5Seven

Registered:
Posts: 34
Reply with quote  #22 
Right, I shouldn't be so reductionalist... all high-order physics ties back to quantum physics, as you are really dealing with mass quantities of atoms and quarks and gleeks and gugatzes and whatever else is hiding deep down in there. I know the resonance of any material is directly related to its atomic & molecular composition... wavelengths that approximate the degree to which molecules in a given material have the freedom to move, the ability of atoms to translate energy from one to the next along a mass... it's all very neat stuff. I'd love to see a book on it as well.

But for all practical purposes, people just need to not make lousy sitars.
0
Sillofthedoor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
people just need to not make lousy sitars.
That is the given, the constant in the equation.
0
CarbonSitars

Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Three5Seven"

But for all practical purposes, people just need to not make lousy sitars.
I think the reason so many lousy sitars are getting made because there is a huge demand for cheap, lousy sitars. The market is filling the demand. What I wonder is how much money and time people wound up spending fixing or replacing all of these terrible instruments had they just bought a good one in the first place.

Cheap sitars are expensive.
0
Three5Seven

Registered:
Posts: 34
Reply with quote  #25 
I can speak for myself, Westerners simply don't know a thing about sitars til they get one. We do know about guitars, and $350 will get you a very playable guitar. Hell, even a $100 instrument is performance grade; it's a folk instrument by design. A sitar is a classical instrument, more akin to a cello or a contra-bassoon. So without knowing the price points, or what even makes a good sitar vs a cheap sitar, many folks are just content with whatever they wind up with (or they just presume they're no good at it and set it aside)
0
CarbonSitars

Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Three5Seven"
I can speak for myself, Westerners simply don't know a thing about sitars til they get one. We do know about guitars, and $350 will get you a very playable guitar. Hell, even a $100 instrument is performance grade; it's a folk instrument by design. A sitar is a classical instrument, more akin to a cello or a contra-bassoon. So without knowing the price points, or what even makes a good sitar vs a cheap sitar, many folks are just content with whatever they wind up with (or they just presume they're no good at it and set it aside)
Absolutely. There are places like Rondo Music where one can obtain a $125 bass guitar, and it will be perfectly good to learn on. Take care of it, and you could use it for years before upgrading to a boutique instrument if you choose to take it that far. But the sitar is different. It is like a cello. The margin for error in its construction is very narrow. But there's still that perception in the West that because an Indian-made instrument costs $350, it might be comparable to a more expensive western instrument because of the lower cost to manufacture goods in India. In reality, it's the opposite. A $350 sitar might buy you the quality of an instrument that costs a quarter of that in the West. What is acceptable on a $2000 sitar would never make it past a QC inspector on a $2000 American-made guitar. That there are Indian exporters who are willing to cynically sell these instruments to unsuspecting students is really frustrating, especially to any of us who are involved in selling or making these beautiful instruments because we know it will do nothing but discourage people from pursuing it on a deeper level.
0
OM GUY

Registered:
Posts: 841
Reply with quote  #27 
"... That there are Indian exporters who are willing to cynically sell these instruments to unsuspecting students is really frustrating, especially to any of us who are involved in selling or making these beautiful instruments because we know it will do nothing but discourage people from pursuing it on a deeper level....."


*** The same can be said for most everything on the market. And who cares if a prospective student becomes discouraged? Surely not the sellers who are only out to make a buck. And cool beans for them, as there ain't no fine print nor any directions in printed form in 25 languages. It's good old "buyer beware capitalism at it's best".

As my parents used to say, " your eyes are bigger than your stomach " ( that's highly debatable now tho'! )... many of us are so hell bent with owning a sitar, that we can hardly wipe the drool from our faces long enough to hold back the horses from going off of the cliff. Thank goodness for this forum and the folks who ask and answer questions that hopefully shape and mold our thought processes long enough to purchase quality instruments.

The only downside is: Hurry, they are going fast.... once they're gone, they're gone for good, or so I'm told.

__________________
Let's hope 2016 is less violent and that people discover the soothing influence of ICM. Hari OM!
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.