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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #91 
What about Asians that are born OUTSIDE, say, India???

How much more or less will THEY be able to grasp their 'own' music? Will THEY always have an advantage over the NON-Indian, if any at all?
Even one non-Indian who's spent many years learning ICM in & out of India?

Nick
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #92 
"Can an Asian not exposed to Western music growing up ever really grasp harmony or counterpoint?"

"For that matter can an a western child only exposed to contemporary pop music ever grasp harmony or counterpoint?
What about Asians that are born OUTSIDE, say, India???
How much more or less will THEY be able to grasp their 'own' music? Will THEY always have an advantage over the NON-Indian, if any at all?
Even one non-Indian who's spent many years learning ICM in & out of India?"



Yes, David, there is such a thing as a stupid question. (Am I going to be deleted for saying that?)

Are Jewish people better at business than at sports?

These questions presuppose that a conclusion can be drawn from any general observation. Depends on the individual, his ability to grasp any mechanical and abstract concept and work with it, the extent of his previous familiarity with the subject and dozens of other related factors.

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #93 
First comes exposure. Then pedagogy. If both those elements are sufficiently available to a student, why shouldn't he able to absorb the aesthetics of a musical style?

The major problem is that perhaps some talented western musicians simply don't have enough time to master ICM having already spent half their lives trying to learn the music they grew up with.

I would think that if talented children of western enthusiasts of ICM, being exposed as they would be to ICM from a young age in their homes, were encouraged to take up say the sitar, as other western kids are encouraged to take up the piano, they will be able to become proficient and natural in it if they have some fundamental musical talent.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #94 
A
Are you saying my post had stupid questions in it or are we going back to the long gone thread about ICM & racism?

Nick
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Dspeck

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Reply with quote  #95 
Some thoughts from a different viewpoint (western classical and rock musician, been fed bollywood music through the navel, then nothing of it for many years, real ICM is relatively new to me).

I don't think it is of any use to recondition western ears unless you want to fully convert from WCM to ICM, but in that case, you better wait for your next incarnation and see to start in the right place

A skilled WCM musician has good hearing in physical, intellectual and emotional ways. The existing intellectual way is patially obsolete for ICM, the other two thirds are a huge advantage over the average beginner to ICM. And intellectual hearing is just a set of rules put together over time when he was learning WCM. When he starts learning ICM, he has to set up a new set of rules for that, just like any other new student.

What makes things a bit more complicated is the cultural background. Every music is rooted to its culture and it "talks" about it. Every person carries a lot of cultural information which defines how he sees the world, it defines qualities such as beauty, style, honor, pride, the meaning of life and death and much more. Such a cultural background can be changed and extended, but it can't ever be replaced. I am not sure, how important this aspect is, but I am confident, that this is the hardest obstacle a western musician will meet when learning ICM and the same applies for any musican who wants to move out of his origins.

Consequently, I have to agree that the only thing a western musician can do about his ears is to listen with all his senses and all of his heart, a virtue, that he should have developed when learning WCM already.

ps: Woops, I just realised how old this thread is
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why

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Posts: 87
Reply with quote  #96 
This is great an actual fun forum ~ and funny to boot ~ whoever said that comment about internet forums, good comedic timing in there.

I third (or 5th) CHESSECAKE (The more I read our CHEESY friend, i had to, the more i realize THIS GUY IS WICKED SMART when it comes to this stuff and nice to boot) SING SING SING SING SING with every note. LISTE LISTEN LISTEN ~ Bill mentions it elsewhere LISTEN to one piece ALOT, i think that is what you said and i agree if not sorry.

You will be absolutely SHOCKED at HOW MUCH SINGING WILL HELP even if you think you cant sing (it doesn't matter to be in key ~ SPEAK IT if you have to, it is about wiring the BRAIN a certain way) sing with the instrument. You can even give yourself ~ singing time ~ and playing time if it gets "monotonous" or "strenuous"... You gotta be careful ~ singing, especially incorrectly will make you MUCH more tired than simply playing. Energy, is required and more of it. Obviously the energy "circles back in" if one reaches a"point" in technique and form and presentation that is close to 90 percent equal to that which exists in nature. The river of notes are perfect and everywhere. We practice simply to get better at reflecting the truth ~ not create an imaginary one. The Divine is what we chase ~ we will never attain it ~ but the chase is oh so worth it...
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why

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Reply with quote  #97 
I did no realize how old this was either
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CheesecakeTomek

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Reply with quote  #98 
Thanks for the kind words Anand, the respect is certainly mutual!

A year has passed since this thread was alive and I stand behind my words 100%. Things are getting more comfortable in the realm of intonation in ICM (certainly miles left to go), and it's all about the singing. If you can recognize the sound but once, then it's just a matter of reproducing it enough times so that it becomes a part of you. Just how it's like well....I pulled that meend ONCE... 10,000 more times.....missing fewer every 1,000..... The chase is so awesome.

Dspeck, REALLY good point re: the cultural aspect of the music. I had been thinking about this for a while and then got served a hot plate of reality when my teacher introduced Desh to me a few weeks back. She is talking about the raga and relating it to the smell of Bengali food and this and that and how you can't REALLY play Desh without having experienced all of these things, but that I would learn the rules and give my own version and it was like but it's also very beautiful in that sense too.
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why

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Posts: 87
Reply with quote  #99 
My Dear Trippy Bhai ~ no you could NEVER be "racist" or whatever. I think at times its the Indian community that can be (to me definitely, American born I had to fight a lot) "slanted" towards those born in India. I really have no clue why i replied to this ~ i thought it was current, don't take offense Nick-Ji please.... I am actually kinda "interested" in this now that I know it was years ago. We can talk about in private why I liked it so... When ca I meet you ~ i am dying to see my Nick Bhai. We go to play with Ikram Bhai and everyone?
From
Brown Bear
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why

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Posts: 87
Reply with quote  #100 
Nick Bahi I just re read what you wrote and ~ROTFLMAO ~ is that how we write it? I do not know internet notation... Or emoticons are they?
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Dspeck

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Reply with quote  #101 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "CheesecakeTomek"
...introduced Desh to me a few weeks back. She is talking about the raga and relating it to the smell of Bengali food...
You probably don't really need to know Bengali food, but you need to know the athmosphere that people relate to it. Dinner music comes to my mind here: Many western people have a clear association to its sound although it can be any music that doesn't draw too much attention and creates a relaxed athmosphere. Not saying, that Desh is like dinner music, I only want to demonstrate how musical associations work and get to a valid point. It is actually worth watching Bill Bailey explaining mood chords (youtube). It is not a musical lesson, but between the lines, he is so right
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CheesecakeTomek

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Posts: 513
Reply with quote  #102 
Quote:
relating it to the smell of Bengali food and this and that and how you can't REALLY play Desh without having experienced all of these things
Quote:
but you need to know the athmosphere that people relate to it
We're on the same page, my friend I limited to quoting the food reference because it was the only thing I remembered, but she listed quite a few things that basically added up to, as you said, to truly understand the raga you need to know the atmosphere and cultural aspects that it relates to. Quite the challenge that requires nothing short of emersion I am sure.

-Tomek

P.S. I watched the video, very amusing! Definitely gets the point across, save for that beginning bit about the sports theme. Seems like he just applied the moods to serve the joke there. No harm though, good stuff!
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Bill

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Posts: 161
Reply with quote  #103 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Dspeck"
Some thoughts from a different viewpoint (western classical and rock musician, been fed bollywood music through the navel, then nothing of it for many years, real ICM is relatively new to me).

I don't think it is of any use to recondition western ears unless you want to fully convert from WCM to ICM, but in that case, you better wait for your next incarnation and see to start in the right place

A skilled WCM musician has good hearing in physical, intellectual and emotional ways. The existing intellectual way is patially obsolete for ICM, the other two thirds are a huge advantage over the average beginner to ICM. And intellectual hearing is just a set of rules put together over time when he was learning WCM. When he starts learning ICM, he has to set up a new set of rules for that, just like any other new student.

What makes things a bit more complicated is the cultural background. Every music is rooted to its culture and it "talks" about it. Every person carries a lot of cultural information which defines how he sees the world, it defines qualities such as beauty, style, honor, pride, the meaning of life and death and much more. Such a cultural background can be changed and extended, but it can't ever be replaced. I am not sure, how important this aspect is, but I am confident, that this is the hardest obstacle a western musician will meet when learning ICM and the same applies for any musican who wants to move out of his origins.

Consequently, I have to agree that the only thing a western musician can do about his ears is to listen with all his senses and all of his heart, a virtue, that he should have developed when learning WCM already.
Dspeck, Everything you say is true. Only I wish I could have said as well. My only addition would be to suggest that possibly the majority of westerners in general simply aren't used to thinking in broader cultural terms and assume that everything cultural can be reduced to common equation. Hence it becomes simpler to attempt to understand music or any form of culture as an isolated phenomenon rather than as something that loses a tangible amount when removed from its original source.
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why

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Posts: 87
Reply with quote  #104 
Deep thoughts by Bill Very well constructed sentences and ideas. True to boot Beauty in words and thought, specifically

" Hence it becomes simpler to attempt to understand music or any form of culture as an isolated phenomenon rather than as something that loses a tangible amount when removed from its original source." ~ Bill

I want to use that in a book ~ need your last name. Mind P.M.ing me? If i can use it that is ~ i would give credit where credit is due...
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Dspeck

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Posts: 115
Reply with quote  #105 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Bill"
...suggest that possibly the majority of westerners in general simply aren't used to thinking in broader cultural terms and assume that everything cultural can be reduced to common equation...
No, it is not that bad. Of course people like to talk a lot and try to explain everything in scientific terms but in most cases this is just because they need something familiar to hold on to. But as a reminder to any musician interested in unknown music, your comment is a good reminder indeed And there is a big difference between those who want to delve into ICM and those who simply pick a few ideas to incorporate them into their very own music. The last ones may be totally oblivious of any cultural meaning of the original since it isn't relevant to their ideas and that is perfectly fine - though, of course, this does't do justice to ICM or any other music they might (ab)use.
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