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barend

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Reply with quote  #1 
First of all: I really like rudra veena...I think it is one of the most beautiful indian instruments.

I have listened to the alap of rudra veena player Shri Suvir Misra playing raag Shivmat Bhairav (you can download it elsewhere on this forum).

I think he uses too much vibrato and too much fast embellishments on this recording. I really like this type of embellishmentments but I think he has overdone it on this recording. Too much vibrato is annoying me.
In my opinion it doesn't match with the slow dhrupad type alap he is playing.

I like better the way ZM Dagar is playing, he also plays a lot of embellishments but he does this in moderation and on the right places.

I don't want to offend anyone, it is just my opinion.
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #2 
Namaste friend Barend

Why an opinion should offend anyone is beyond me.
You know as I well do, some people get very easily offended here

I agree with the comments on vibrato. I got 2 VCDs of Asad Ali Khan playing his Rudra Vina in Chennai of all places. His playing seems more traditional with long sweeping meends. 8)

It reminds me of the Dhrupad festival in feb in Varanasi where the 2 'Banarsi' Mishras played a surbahar duet. The son Debrata played his like he would play his sitar with staccato notes & lots of clashing of the bottom taraf. It was nicknamed 'rock'n'roll' surbahar & did NOT sound good. I have it all on video.

I managed to pick up a compilation CD in Varanasi of 'Veena' with Z M playing Chandrakauns & Jog along with some very old (I would presume ancient 78s) of some other Ustad. I always liked Z M playing & have a copy, from UK TV, of 'Dhrupad', the Mani Kaul thing filmed at Fatehpur Sikri near Agra.

A bit of Indian trivia now. I was at Nitai's shop in Varanasi & he showed us the gorgeous dragon head of a Rudra Vina he was making for someone out of teak. About a foot or so long. The head piece not the whole thing obviously :wink: It seems he's the only one in Varanasi actually making instruments from scratch. Yes, I know they ALL say these kinds of things but it was beautiful. I didn't dare ask for a picture in case of copyright problems. SHAME EH?

Nick
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beenkar

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Reply with quote  #3 
Just take one test-

One just needs to follow vocally the alaap on the been performance in to understand how the srutis of Raga Shivmat Bhairav are being approached using the so called 'vibrato'............

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barend

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Reply with quote  #4 
This has nothing to do with sruti's or with a specific raag or raag ang...it is just a matter of the total approach.

If it has to do with the raag (according to beenkar) I want to listen to him play Yaman or so (or another raag).
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beenkar

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Reply with quote  #5 
"This has nothing to do with sruti's or with a specific raag or raag ang"

You would have plenty of opportunity to listen to my Yaman someday........from what I can understand from your comments you have a better understanding of Shivmat Bhairav and I would love you hear your exposition.........

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रंग भरयौ मुसकात लला निकस्यौ कल कुंजन ते सुखदाई
टूटि गयो घर को सब बंधन छूटि गौ आरज- लाज- बड़ाई
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barend

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Reply with quote  #6 
As I was expecting someone is feeling offended....as you expose yourself on the web you also have to be able to handle some critics.

I am not saying I know Shivmat Bhairav better..I am just saying the meends and embellishments are too fast to my taste to suit the dhrupad ang....but that is just my opinion.
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Surbaharplayer

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Reply with quote  #7 
First of all: is the recording dhrupad-ang? I was under the assumption it was Khyal. Maybe Beenkar (Suvir Misra??) can explain. Bablu told me several weeks ago there are several Rudra Veena players who also play in Khyal-ang on the instrument.

Peace,

Remco
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beenkar

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Reply with quote  #8 
Dhrupad vs Khayal Ang is not same as Less 'Embellishments' vs 'more Embellishments'......................so Darbhanga Gharana is not Dhrupad and Old Gwalior Gharana is not Khayal................Shamshudin Faridi is not playing 'Dhrupad' style Been.......anyone who does not play the been in vajrasana is not playing Been properly........RS is not playing pure Sitar according to the VK followers..........such issues are numerous ...some times these issues turn out to be rhetorics which need to be handled at a different level.............
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रंग भरयौ मुसकात लला निकस्यौ कल कुंजन ते सुखदाई
टूटि गयो घर को सब बंधन छूटि गौ आरज- लाज- बड़ाई
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Joshua Feinberg

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Reply with quote  #9 
hello all,

my 2rs. having never heard this recording my comments will be quite general. a bin performance should be austere, thats the Dhrupad tradition. Usatds ZM Dagar and Asad Ali Khan got it right I believe. (althought I have heard that the style of bin playing wasn't as austere in the period before sitar music was invented. the trend seams to have been as sitar became busier, the bin became less so.)

anywho. dealing with this vibrato issue- as i have said i haven't heard this recording. but vibrato is very very much a raga issue, its called andolan. Shivamat Bhairav has a big sweeping andolan on komal rishab. Pandit Malikarjun Mansur sings it so large its from shuddha rishab. its that big. its a characteristic phrase in the raga. but it would be totally incorect to play Bhairav, or Ahir Bhairav with that same phrase on komal rishab, its unique to Shivamat Bhairav. the most well-known raga that uses this type of motion is Darbari Kanara on komal gandar and dhaivat.

big andolan is mostly used in heavier ragas, which clearly are not everyone's cup of chai. personally i feel that, like very thing else, if its done well then its beautiful.

best,

jf

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #10 
OK my 2cents worth as well.

Actually the andolan nature of the komal rishab is a feature of all Bhairau prakars. Check out any good Bhairau recording and you will find this andolan, but particularly the dhrupads by say the Dagars where the very slow alaap give plenty time and space to elaborate these shruti plays.

The komal dhaivat is also andolan but not so much as the rishab, it mostly gets graces off the Nishad. I have a recording of Ustad Sarahang singing his own composition with a Persian text which really highlight these features of Bhairau.

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Joshua Feinberg

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Reply with quote  #11 
hello,

of course yes, the andolan in rishab is characteristic of all Bhairav ragas, but the particular shape of the ornament, and the size of it depends on the raga. Shivamat Bhairav has a bigger andolan than Bhairav etc. . .

just to clarify :-)

jf

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