INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
BWV

Registered:
Posts: 55
Reply with quote  #16 
So what do you all do with the seasonal ragas in a temperate climate?

Are there not special ragas for the monsoon season?

The seasonal thing does seem to work for me - I always listen to more ICM in the summer (I live in Houston - perhaps it is the similarity in hot weather).
0
povster

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,487
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aanaddha"
...Curious, does anyone ever stop to wonder that so many non-Indian 'musicicologists' appear to know more about Indian Classical Music than the Indian musicians themselves? :?
Nah. On my only trip to Kolkata (December '79 - Jan '80) I came back with a large suitcase literally filled with books on ICM written by Indian scholars (almost too heavy to lift). And there were many more not in English that I did not get simply becuase I could not read them. They abound.

__________________
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official bread of ICM
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "musicslug"
thanks for the Kaufmann excerpt - that is the one I was thinking of; but didn't he also write that, prior to this, there's less (or no) mention of the time-theory, indicating that it came into vogue at a certain point?

I think I was asked what the 'tivra Ma' phenomenon is - is that the case? I assumed the regulars were familiar with the correlation between tivra Ma-containing ragas and a particular slice of the 24-hour cycle.
Unfortunately my copy of the Kaufmann is literally a photocopy, taken some 30 years ago, now incomplete as far as the introduction goes, and unfortunately I don't have the preceding page which is lost, so can't answer that. But I think a thousand years or more is enough, no?

Re the tivra ma, I must admit I personally find that has a particular dramatic effect on my ear.

But having said that, tivra ma is not picked out for special attention in the time theory. Here's Kaufmann's analysis from a "brief investigation" into this, the chart shows all of re, ga, ma dha and ni shifting at different times of day -
http://www.trulliland.co.uk/private/ragatimeofday.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aanaddha"
...Curious, does anyone ever stop to wonder that so many non-Indian 'musicicologists' appear to know more about Indian Classical Music than the Indian musicians themselves? :?
Yes this occurred to me too as I was writing the last post.

But this is I think mere appearance because of the distribution in the west of books and articles, lectures etc by western theorists. Povster is right, there is a ton of stuff in India which doesn't percolate through unless digested, maybe translated and reanalysed by western theorists, although it's clear that some western theorists don't have the language skills to read for themselves the original materials in Hindi, Sanskrit or other Indian languages.

Kaufmann, for example, more an analyst than a theorist, bases his illustrations a lot on Bhatkande's work it seems, as eg in the allocation of the 8 prahars to the day.

So if we rephrased the question as why Indian musicologists know more about ICM than the Indian musicians themselves, that's a different and relevant question.

But for the present discussion, it is apparent that playing ragas according to time of day evolved through the practice of the musicians, not as an isolated theory concocted by musicologists.
0
Aanaddha

Registered:
Posts: 1,932
Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
So if we rephrased the question as why Indian musicologists know more about ICM than the Indian musicians themselves, that's a different and relevant question.

But for the present discussion, it is apparent that playing ragas according to time of day evolved through the practice of the musicians, not as an isolated theory concocted by musicologists.
ragamala,

I appreciate the correction as it makes your final assessment dead on! :wink:
As subtle and inconsequential as such details may appear to most, something is lost, and it's always a little sad when music and art are stripped of their context. Like an inside joke, in this case the association of music with the time of day (like some arcane vedic practice) lends a flavor and context to any live performance that's difficult for me to imagine enjoying as fully without. (In western music theory however there is no difference between performance, practice, and recording - the process of notation renders them essentially the same.)

A.

The efforts of Bhatkhande and Paluskar and their followers was, and still is, in fact, to emulate western music theory and thus raise the status of ICM, Indian culture in general, (and themselves in the process) to the level of current western music/culture appreciation standards. Indeed, every attempt to notate ragas in solfege since then has to some degree an identical purpose.
Bhatkhande's contempt for gharandar musicians is widely known - hence his own music institutions and those inpired by him and Paluskar are known as "colleges" and "universities".

__________________
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
0
CheesecakeTomek

Registered:
Posts: 513
Reply with quote  #20 
The reasoning my teacher, Acharya Roop Verma, gives for the time designation of the ragas comes form a yogic point of view, of keeping inner balance. As the angle of the sun changes and different colors (frequencies, vibrations) become prominent, we should adjust the notes (frequencies, vibrations) that we sing/play, and different notes should be emphasized (vadi/samvadi). This is, of course, where the 8 prahars come into play, as was mentioned earlier. Without getting long-winded, consider the recognized theory (I must confess that I forget the name of the theory, someone help me out if you know) that the most basic element we, as organisms, can be broken down into can exist as a frequency (vibration) at any given time, then it should make sense that we are sympathetically affected by all these vibrations around us. Therefore we should take care to invoke ragas appropriate to the current prahar.

I hope the above makes sense. Roopji, having studied nada yoga for more than 35 years is of course much more convincing, knowing all the facts- yogic and scientific. I have heard him lecture enough on this to at least give it its fair chance of being valid. As his student and representative of his school of thought, I of course mold my playing habits to it. Regarding the question of "what about when you're just practicing?" I practice my bols, sapat, meend, alankar, any other "thaat" work without regard for the time, and try to make sure that I practice whatever raga we are currently working on at the appropriate time. He has said that if I have to practice it at the wrong time it certainly won't kill me , and that consistent, daily practice is the highest priority, but that it is best to follow the rules whenever possible.


I hope you all find this constructive and look forward to hearing any feedback on this, as I this particular aspect has not been discussed.

Cheers,
Tomek

-addition-

I realized that nowhere in the above did I mention my own disposition on the topic. Though I do not experience physical discomfort (to which many artists, my teacher included, attest to) when a raga is played at the inappropriate time, I do experience added joy, appreciation when one is played at the correct time. It just feels better, right, there is something extra. Also, there are certain ragas (Bhairav, Darbari, Kalyan, Shuddha/Vrindavani Sarangs, to name a few) that do just sound wrong to me when played at "inappropriate" times. Anyways, those are my two cents.
0
povster

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,487
Reply with quote  #21 
Hi CheesecakeT!

You mentioned "As the angle of the sun changes and different colors (frequencies, vibrations) become prominent, we should adjust the notes (frequencies, vibrations) that we sing/play, and different notes should be emphasized (vadi/samvadi)."

In the live Vilayat Khan Mutani I have on my music site, at the end he begins to address the differences between Multani and Todi, having the same scale but treating the notes differently. He says "Todi is played usually at this angle of the sun, and the same notes - Multani - is to played at this angle of the sun." I find it interesting your teacher also used the term "angle of the sun" as opposed to hour of the day (this angle of the sun thing is certainly not uncommon but you still much more hear "hour of the day" as opposed to angle of the sun. Now I have to wonder when the sun goes down, is there a different reference point beyond just the hour itself?

__________________
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official bread of ICM
0
CheesecakeTomek

Registered:
Posts: 513
Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "povster"

this angle of the sun thing is certainly not uncommon but you still much more hear "hour of the day" as opposed to angle of the sun.
Yes, and I wonder why? The hours of the day are such arbitrary assignments. 6 pm one part of the year will be late into dusk or even evening, while another part of the year there will be 2.5-3 hours of sunlight left. There is nothing significant pinned to the hours. Shifting focus to the angles of the sun introduces a much more stable factor. When my teacher gives me a raga he might say that it is to be played in the first part of evening, or mid-day, or in the late afternoon. As the year goes 'round the exact time that corresponds to this will shift, but it always feels good to play that raga at that part of the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "povster"
Now I have to wonder when the sun goes down, is there a different reference point beyond just the hour itself?
A very interesting thought! There must be something changing. I can think of movement toward midnight-ish, when night has fully set in, and from there movement toward dusk, at which point its time to break out the prkash. I gather this from reading that the midnight ragas can be played up until the beginnings of dawn. However, I am seeing my teacher play tomorrow night, and perhaps I can fish quick lecture out of him afterwards on this
Quote:
Originally Posted by "povster"
In the live Vilayat Khan Mutani I have on my music site, at the end he begins to address the differences between Multani and Todi
I got that file from your site quite some time ago and I love the talk he gives afterwards! It's nice when you hear the words of an artist from another school lining right up with your teacher's. A beautiful performance too. Many thanks for making that available!

Cheers,
Tomek
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "CheesecakeTomek"
The hours of the day are such arbitrary assignments. 6 pm one part of the year will be late into dusk or even evening, while another part of the year there will be 2.5-3 hours of sunlight left. There is nothing significant pinned to the hours.
...........................
Tomek
This depends upon your viewpoint, and how far you are from the equator?

Even here in Italy people often express surprise to me how early in the evening it gets dark in summer compared with England.

But to be sure also India has a broad ew-scape for a single timezone.

But the essence here is not fixed times, but what everyone who has experience of India feels about the way the light comes in the morning, the way the heat arises in summer, the way the sarangi pegs pop, and in the evening the prime example of a "time" known by all in the countryside - the cows coming home and kicking up the dust. The time when the heat drops and relaxation can begin. These and I am sure a lot of other subjective but real factors have been built in by the theorists to explain the performance practice.
0
CheesecakeTomek

Registered:
Posts: 513
Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "CheesecakeTomek"
The hours of the day are such arbitrary assignments. 6 pm one part of the year will be late into dusk or even evening, while another part of the year there will be 2.5-3 hours of sunlight left. There is nothing significant pinned to the hours.
...........................
Tomek
This depends upon your viewpoint, and how far you are from the equator?

Even here in Italy people often express surprise to me how early in the evening it gets dark in summer compared with England.

Of course. I was only stating one of the more extreme, practical examples for the sake of my argument. The point being that In different parts of the world, at different times of the year, what we get at the same hour is not going to necessarily be the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
But the essence here is not fixed times, but what everyone who has experience of India feels about the way the light comes in the morning, the way the heat arises in summer, the way the sarangi pegs pop, and in the evening the prime example of a "time" known by all in the countryside - the cows coming home and kicking up the dust. The time when the heat drops and relaxation can begin. These and I am sure a lot of other subjective but real factors have been built in by the theorists to explain the performance practice.
I have absolutely no doubt about that, and in fact feel as though I have read a statement very similar to that somewhere. What my teacher suggests is that these sentiments can be felt on a more universal (or at least international ) level. That as I listen to Des right now (12:30 pm) it does not have the same delicate sentiment it did when I listened to it last night close to 1 am. It's still a beautiful performance, but at night there was a glass-like delicate feel to it that is absent right now.

Cheers,
Tomek
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.