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Andius

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Posts: 84
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi guys,

Puzzles me why open/closed jawari are termed as such. Open Jawari = strings approach long curved bridge surface at a shallow angle. Logical surely to refer to this as closed! (angle-wise) Closed Jawari = strings approach a steeper-curved bridge at a more open angle; again why is this referred to as "closed"? Seems a bit arse-about-face to me. Cant see how it can be applied to the different intonation either. Surely better if "clearer" or "richer" terms used for jawari styles.
Maybe its just me! ops: Same with electrical switches: I = On O - off ; but to me O seems indicate a circuit (on) while the I indicated a blocking bar (off). Hmm, must be me!
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daz199

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Reply with quote  #2 
i'm pretty sure you got it mixed up, open is the strings hitting the bridge at a greater angle, closed is having the strings flush w/ bridge
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Chandran

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Reply with quote  #3 
OK- LETS HAVE IT OUT!

JAWARI TERMINOLOGY 101

Lets here from the makers and fixers (and hackers too) what terminology means what to them.

Lets try not to focus on the technical aspects of doing jawari and focus on the vocabulary.

Tips on how to check a jawari would be useful too.

This could be one of the most important topics yet!
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element-82

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Posts: 317
Reply with quote  #4 
I think open and closed are both bad terms, but I think we are stuck with them.

I think everyone is right. I prefer to think of the open and closed in terms of the sound, which we can agree on. Open is buzzy, shimmery, very cool "Shankar" sound. The jawari face is an somwhat flat elliptical curve. There is more room/gap under the stirngs at the front.

Closed is a clear, bright sound, slightly guitar like, no buzz. I find the closed sound slightly louder, probably because the player has to work a little harder for it. The jawari is typically eliptical but more arched than closed so that there is very little gap under the strings at the front.

My 2 cents.

pb

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Andius

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thanx guys,
But this just confirms how unclear the terms "open" or "closed" jawari is, as Daz thinks it means one thing and element thinks it means the opposite re: bridge curvature!
From past posts I understood "open" jawari meant a flatter/longer curve, and "closed" meant a more arched/shorter curve, but never could understand why. Yes, element an open jawari gives a more buzzier, richer, Shankar sound, and a closed jawari gives a clearer brighter sound; but does "open" or "closed" describe these sounds? I dont see how. Do these 2 terms describe bridge curvature? I don't see how unless Daz is right and most of you other guys are wrong! Then they could describe well the angle of string approach onto the bridge. More logical. The mystery deepens!

Chandran has a good point also; lets hear from you makers/fixers and other much more knowledgable guys on why such terms are clear as mud :wink: Clean away the mud for us and show us the true meaning!
Let your bright rays of Wisdom bring us from dark ignorance to the clarity of understanding! (Blimey, enuf of this!)

Anyway, beginners like me can learn more easily if everyone has the same understanding of terms.
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AbdulLatif

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Reply with quote  #6 
OK- LETS HAVE IT OUT!

JAWARI TERMINOLOGY 101

Lets here from the makers and fixers (and hackers too) what terminology means what to them.

Lets try not to focus on the technical aspects of doing jawari and focus on the vocabulary. quote]

8) 120 over 80 my friend. 8) Depends on what your definition of is is.

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Chandran

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Reply with quote  #7 
"Depends on what your definition of is is. "

Or maybe what my definition of is isn't...... :roll:

(Bill Crintan?)
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povster

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Chandran"
"Depends on what your definition of is is. "

Or maybe what my definition of is isn't...... :roll:
Hey butchers and bakers and sitar makers! Whats you gots to say for yerselfs?

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povster

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Reply with quote  #9 
So anyways, my own perception of open vs closed is simply how the instrument sounds. A round, warm tone akin to Nikhil Banerji is a "closed" jawari. I used to think Vilayat Khan's was an "open" jawari, and it does have the - how to put it - "edge" to it. But the base tone itself is actually very warm. Ravi Shankar's sitar sound has always been difficult for me to decide "open" or "closed". I usually end up thinking "Ravi Shankar sound". I tend to think of the ultimate "open" sound is that horrendous twangy sound used on some of the 60's rock and roll. They almost sound like they're fretting tambouras.

So what do others have to think about this? Can you give your own definitions and/or examples of what you feel is open vs closed?

More on this later for it is late enough! :roll:

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povster

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Reply with quote  #10 
Anybody out there?
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #11 
Ok, so this is the way we see it.

As everyone knows, the string is strung between two ridges, one at the bridge and one at the top (the nut). lowering the ridge on the bridge "opens" the length of the string allows for increased surface contact with the bridge.( touching the surface of the bridge.) Making the ridge on the bridge higher, "closes" the length of the string and also allow for less contact with the surface of the bridge.

At least that is the way it was explained to me and it makes perfect sense to me. The other point to make here is the problem of the intonation on the laraj and Kharaj in the RS tuning scheme. If you look at a guitar bridge it sits at an angle to allow the thicker strings to be further away from the "nut" and to be able to have the proper intonation. The thinner strings need to be "closer" to the nut. When they added the laraj and Kharaj strings to the sitar to avoid having to play the Surbahar or other "alap" instrument and then switch to sitar to play gat, they didn't change the angle of the bridge, causing an intonation problem on the frets of the laraj and kharaj. No one minded because all the notes on these should be played on meend anyway and so no one did anything about it. Also putting the bridge at an angle would not look cool, I guess. We've been toying around on how to correct this problem. So "opening" the jawari by lowering the "ridge" on the bridge and "closing" the jawari by increasing the ridge and "closing" the distance to the nut.

my 2 cents.

Bharat
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Andius

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Reply with quote  #12 
Sitarfanatic,
Good post sitarman Far better than some of the sad posts recently.
Hmmm, your explanation of the jawari terms "open" and "closed" does seem to make some sense to me, but I would need to be further convinced.
I've been thinking (Ouch!) Do you think these two terms are a direct translation into english from two Indian words? If so, extra meanings present in the originals may have been lost in the process.
Any of you other guys know more about this?
Much confusion at present over what an open or closed jawari actually is, and why they are called such. Would help all of us if we had the same meanings for sitar terms.
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Andius

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Reply with quote  #13 
first line of my last post, read: Sitarman=Sitarfanatic ops:
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element-82

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Reply with quote  #14 
I think there is enough confusion about the symatics here, that it is better to just listen to the sound. If you say RS or VK or NB sound, people will know. The problem is that once it is clear in your mind, it will not be clear to someone else. Then, how do you communicate the information? It is too much effort to explain it. If you decide it should be technical term, then it must be clearly defined somewhere so that people can go off and independently look it up.

Pb
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Andius"
first line of my last post, read: Sitarman=Sitarfanatic ops:

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Bhatiyali

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Reply with quote  #15 
Agree with Bharat. Open means the string is moving around (from point of contact of jawaree) and hitting the curved part of the jawaree that it's not sticking to. Closed means the string starts moving (think physics) at the very end of the jawaree and doesn't hit part of the board very much.

Also agree with Element that the words are really used to describe the sound.

Most of all, agree with Andius that these are translations of words that make complete sense at least in bangla !!

Cusiously, I've also heard someone speak of 'jawaree' being open or closed even in the case of singers. This refers to the 'openness' of a singers voice -- difficult to explain in detailed english, but makes complete sense in bengali sorry

Bhatiyali
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