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Teevra notes other than teevra Ma? GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
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255 posts talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
Raga_Mala wrote:
Talasiga is absolutely correct about the English usage of "tone" and "semitone" re: Western intervals and western theory.
There are indeed "six tones in an octave" - that is an accurate usage of the term. Tone is a unit of measure, and an octave is equal to six of them.

Talasiga is not right about applying this idea to Indian music. Indian music is based on a just-tempered scale which means that (EVEN leaving aside microtonal variations such as ati-komal or ati-tivra) the semitones (sic) of the chromatic (sic) Indian scale will not be of the same size.
.......
Yes thank you.
With ref. to your next paragraph I have never suggested applying the idea of equal measure intervals as notes in traditional Indian music and I had sufficiently clraified this earlier in this very topic.
every flute harbours a muse
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
.....
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
.........

jaan, in music, when people talk about tones in regard to an octave they are talking about the whole tones that make up the octave. There are six of them in any ocatve. A semitone refers to a half of a tone. Therefore there are 12 semitones to an octave.

For instance, the whole tone from G takes you to A. The semitone measured from G is G# (or Ab). This is precisely so in ET divsions and notionally so in just intoned (natural) divisons of the octave.

Where the music is microtonal there are more divisions identified within the octave.

Musical scales comprise various selections of these semitone, whole tone or microtone points.
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
But you are trying to make it sound like HCM had no concept of discreet vikrit swaras, i.e. komal Gandhar, komal nishad etc., before the advent of keyboard instruments into the region, as if the nomenclature of only komal and teewar surs as I described came about under auspices of the harmonium.

Forget about half tones or semi-tones and equal temperament. We are talking about HCM in this discussion.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Tomek 98 posts
Tomek
talasiga wrote:

jaan, in music, when people talk about tones in regard to an octave they are talking about the whole tones that make up the octave. There are six of them in any ocatve. A semitone refers to a half of a tone. Therefore there are 12 semitones to an octave.
That's not accurate. When people talk about tones, they might mean a whole tone, or a semitone. I've never heard anybody state that there are six tones per octave in a diatonic scale, in my 20-something years of involvement in western music.
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
It is accurate and commonly known and understood.

An octave consists of 12 semitones. That is the size of an octave in semitone terms. A semitone is half of a tone. When you divide 6 wholes into halves you get 12.

The notes of a major scale in degrees =
tonic(1st)+tone(2nd)+tone(3rd)+semitone(4th)+tone(5th)+tone(6th)+tone (7th)+semitone(8th)
which is represented in this semitone pattern
2212221
another way commonly shown in Western music is to express it as
TTSTTTS
(ie T for tone and S for semitone).
every flute harbours a muse
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:

Forget about half tones or semi-tones and equal temperament. We are talking about HCM in this discussion.

jaan, whether the whole tones of an octave are divided only into halves
or into more divsions that result in a 22 shruti division is totally relevant to HCM
because contemporary HCM traverses the gamut of divisions (from 12 - 22).

My earlier post simply said that you correctly explained the two usages of teevra in two ways of talking of the 12 semitone breakdown of the octave and my comment added that others had also correctly talked of usages of teevra in the microtonal context also, noting that scales that break a whole tone into thirds and quarters etc are referred to as microtonal.
every flute harbours a muse
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
But you are trying to make it sound like HCM had no concept of discreet vikrit swaras, i.e. komal Gandhar, komal nishad etc., before the advent of keyboard instruments into the region, as if the nomenclature of only komal and teewar surs as I described came about under auspices of the harmonium.
No, I didn't say that nor implied it because this is what I said
talasiga wrote:
......However, while he is correct on general usages of both, the usage of teevra is not restricted to this 12 semitone context (implied by this account).

It is also applied to indicate microtonal shades, noting that indic music, prior to the keyboard paradigm, was and, in deep renditions, continues to be a just intoned microtonal driven system. Thus, in a real live dhrupad class my teacher may say of a shudhh dha (major 6th), "make it teevra", meaning sharper, a tad sharper. If you think that might be because I was singing it flat, it is said of the same enunciated note which was acceptable as a shuddh dha in one raaga but needs to be sharper for the one in question.

So actually, from a birds eye perspective, there is no real conflict in the different usages of teevra canvassed in this thread in as much as those usages are observed in the various native cultural contexts which speak a language/s where teevra means inter alia "sharp".
The implication is not that there was no concept of teevra or komal in pre keyboard music but that there was (and are) more shades of teevra and komal.
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Well then you need to word your paragraphs better.

First, there is no ''semi tone'' concept in HCM. By using this word you are implying the western system.

Next you make mention of some "keyboard paradigm'' (whatever the hell that is supposed to be) again implying western theory.

So on the one side you lumped together the komal/teewar nomenclature, the western concept of the semi-tone and the keyboard; and on the other, microtones and fantastic true blue Indian intonation.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
talasiga wrote:
jaan wrote:
My earlier post simply said that you correctly explained the two usages of teevra in two ways of talking of the 12 semitone
Please, talasiga, I want you to start using the HCM terms for ''12 semitone'' and ''semitone'' from now on. Everyone here, it's safe to say, is knowledgeable enough; nobody will be running to their Hindi-to-English dictionary at the first sight of it.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
.......
First, there is no ''semi tone'' concept in HCM. By using this word you are implying the western system.

Next you make mention of some "keyboard paradigm'' (whatever the hell that is supposed to be) again implying western theory.

So on the one side you lumped together the komal/teewar nomenclature, the western concept of the semi-tone and the keyboard; and on the other, microtones and fantastic true blue Indian intonation.

Not at all. Mathematics is universal.
When you play your harmonium, a European sourced instrument, you are uusing an instrument with 12 semitones to the octave.

Lets say for example you are playing a piece with B as Sa. There are 12 keys from that B to the next one. Each of those keys makes a sound exactly half way between the one before it and the one after it.

When you play a raaga in B Bilawal scale you will play the following notes
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
Counting the keys from the B and then from each consecutive note we get this
B+2+2+1+2+2+2+1

That is, to go to Re you go up two keys (which represents 2 semitones). So from Sa to Shuddha Re (or "Teevra Re") is a whole tone. Now from Re to Ga the same. Then from Ga to the madhyam it is only one key (one semitone). etc.

Now iif you were playing raaga Yaman, for the Kalyan scale you would play the same keys as above EXCEPT that you would raise your ma by a semitone (by going to the next key) for a teevra Ma which in this case would be the F key.

Now, if you play B Kaafi scale then you would get your komal Ga and komal Ni by playing the D and A keys respectively, each a key or semitone below the respective Bilawal position for them.

In other words you are changing from one scale (thaat) to another with the same Sa by using one or other of the 12 semitone options available in any octave on your keyboard.

jaan, that is why, when you play any music on a harmonium or piano, whether it is Hindustani CM, Afghani folk, Nepalese folk, Balkan or Irish you are subject to a 12 semitone paradigm.
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
(So you WERE associating the twelve tones and teevra/komal nomenclature as deriving from the keyboard. I wonder why you then denied it, but are now affirming it?)

So there is not Hindustani word for "semi tone"? As I thought. Now please stop using this irrelevant term. There is no ''keyboard paradigm''. The Harmonium is an accompanying instrument in classical music, that's it. Nobody tunes their voice to it. That's what the tampura is there for. The paradigm is very much still just intonation. If there were a ''keyboard paradigm'', and dhrupadiyas are so against it, then one of the greats of that form (amongst others), Nasser Moinuddin Dagar, would not have performed with one one accompanying him on one of his best recorded performances, namely his Puriya.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
I feel that there is some confusion because either you
* do not understand, or
* are overlooking
the different extant usages of "tone" in English when talking in the musical context.
For our purposes here I will deal with these two:-

1. Tone is a unit of measurement.
2. Tone is a synonym for note (predominantly American English usage, according to my music dictionary and therefore, those who use this meaning, say "whole tone" for the original meaning of tone as a a unit of measurement ).

I will call the first T1 and the latter T2.
Let me now present some sentences using the same word with different meanings:

The tone (T2) F# is three tones (T1) above C.
Therefore with respect to C, F# is a tritone which means three tones (T1).
One can confirm this easily by going to C on a keyboard
and count the number of keys that F# is from C.
You will get 6.
As each of those keys plays a tone (T2) a semitone in measure, namely, a half tone (T1), the tone (T1)measure from C to F# is a tritone or three tones (T1)
In fact, with C as tonic , the tone (T2) F# is an augmented fourth interval and in HCM such an interval is called teevra Ma.
Teevra Ma will always be the same measure from its respective tonic rgardless of what tone (T2) is the tonic. For example, if the tonic is G, teevra Ma will occur exactly three tones (T1) above it.
Interestingly teevar Ma is the only tone (T2) which obtains the same measure whether you go up or down from your tonic. That is because the octave comprises six tones (T1) and teevar Ma sits right in the middle.

[b]To be continued ......
every flute harbours a muse
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
talasiga wrote:
.......The tone (T2) F# is three tones (T1) above C.
Therefore with respect to C, F# is a tritone which means three tones (T1).
One can confirm this easily by going to C on a keyboard
and count the number of keys that F# is from C.
You will get 6.
As each of those keys plays a tone (T2) a semitone in measure, namely, a half tone (T1), the tone (T1)measure from C to F# is a tritone or three tones (T1)
In fact, with C as tonic , the tone (T2) F# is an augmented fourth interval and in HCM such an interval is called teevra Ma.
Teevra Ma will always be the same measure from its respective tonic rgardless of what tone (T2) is the tonic. For example, if the tonic is G, teevra Ma will occur exactly three tones (T1) above it.
Interestingly teevar Ma is the only tone (T2) which obtains the same measure whether you go up or down from your tonic. That is because the octave comprises six tones (T1) and teevar Ma sits right in the middle.

.......
COMMENTARY.

I admit that the above is a clumsy and confusing example. The idea was to show two valid usages of the one word and to show how confusing it would be if one
* did not recognise that there are various meanings, and
* could not ascertain the relevant meaning because of failure to recognise the context of usage.

When one understands the meanings and how a word can have a valid meaning diffrent to another valid meaning depending on context, the muddle disappears. This was exactly thhe situation with the different valid meanings of "teevra", the subject of this topic

Not being of American English persuasion I would have preferred to write the above example as follows, noting that I will only use tone in the T1 sense ( will show the replaced words in red):-

The note F# is three tones above C.
Therefore with respect to C, F# is a tritone which means three tones.
One can confirm this easily by going to C on a keyboard
and count the number of keys that F# is from C.
You will get 6.
As each of those keys plays a note a semitone in measure, namely, a half tone, the tone measure from C to F# is a tritone or three tones.
In fact, with C as tonic , the note F# is an augmented fourth interval and in HCM such an interval is called teevra Ma.
Teevra Ma will always be the same measure from its respective tonic rgardless of what note is the tonic. For example, if the tonic is G, teevra Ma will occur exactly three tones above it.
Interestingly teevar Ma is the only note which obtains the same measure whether you go up or down from your tonic. That is because the octave comprises six tones and teevar Ma sits right in the middle.
every flute harbours a muse
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panchamkauns 273 posts
panchamkauns
anandvyasorg wrote:
Why do we Love UVK or USK ? Vilayat Khan Saheb was notoriously not very "objective" and had quite a temper.
We didn’t debate with him on internet forums
We are 3
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trippy monkey 4,281 posts
trippy monkey
NOT being objective re your art means you very often keep the 'purity' and sanctity of your music & don't feel it needs to be compromised in any way.
Then one might say 'well, how do you 'progress' your art if you aren't 'open' to other ideas.
I think keeping your standards can still 'allow' you to adopt & use anything you see & hear but you will discriminate so you don't sound a 'kitcheree' of styles.

Unless one WANTS to, of course!!!!

And wouldn't it have been an enlightening experience to debate with UVK anywhere, never mind just here!??!?!? 8)

Nick
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nicneufeld Senior Member 1,566 posts
nicneufeld
panchamkauns wrote:
anandvyasorg wrote:
Why do we Love UVK or USK ? Vilayat Khan Saheb was notoriously not very "objective" and had quite a temper.
We didn’t debate with him on internet forums
The thought of his fiery and self-assured personality debating ICM on the chandrakantha forums put a smile to my face! I was about to comment on how partisan and nitpicky much of this thread has been, but it'd be a lovefest compared to UVK suiting up in his chainmail and waging battle on here over various minutiae of ICM! :mrgreen:
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