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AbdulLatif

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Reply with quote  #16 
Joanna wrote:

"A tariffic tangent.....
After tuning the main strings, I tune the lowest Sa first, and then the two highest Sa strings. Then, depending on the Rag, there is a system of which tarif to tune next. In genreal, if the fifth (Pa) is prominent then, after Sa then Pa, and then Re, Dha, Ga, Ni, Ma- basically tuning by fifths.
and if Ma is prominent, then Sa, Ma, Ni, Ga, Dha, Re, Pa.
Of course, all the strings are tuned to Sa but the Vadi plays an important role in the order of which to tune. If Dha is more prominent than Pa, for example,or if R is komal, Ga will be slightly different. This diffence is a tangible, measurable, realistic one and leads into the discussion shruti and the mathematics of well tempered vs untempered tuning etc. If anyone has anything to say about this, I am all ears! (maybe a new thread?)
Joanna"
What a great topic, I don't often see folks discussing shruti especially in this sense. I'm a slow learner but it took me a full 3 years to grasp this concept when I began with my Ustad. I would tune my tarifs to the thaat but find that they would be out of tune with the main strings...hmmm what I found was that the relationship between the intervals needed to be altered microtonaly in order to establish the correct rasa. This is why electronic tuners lead many astray, Joannas tuning method is the same as I was taught by my Ustad. Perons with good ears will notice that the beat tones heard when strumming a descending scale on the taraf strings will align evenly when the correct scale intervals and the main string interval are correct.

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povster

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sitarman"
OK Guys and Gals, don't close the subject yet! I note, when listening to gayaki style players, a very prominent Ni which they regularly finger with their left hand. This leads me to believe that their longest tarb is tuned to it, rather than Sa. Am I correct?
I use that as well, and am not Gayaki. I like the extra bit of contrast you can achieve. Also enjoy using it as a jhalla and rhythmic accent.

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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sitarfanatic"
By the way, the singular is tarab the plural tarafi.


In which dialect is that the case? I've never heard of
any Indian language that changed a final 'b' to 'f' to
form the plural. I wonder if it isn't more likely that
your informant's dialect tolerates 'f' in the middle of
a word (or between vowels as here), but not in word-
final position. See more below on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sitarfanatic"
That's why we have the confusion of tarabs or tarafs, etc.
It's not really a matter of confusion, but just dialectal
variation, as there are thousands of dialects spoken
in India.

The word's origin is Persian, and its original form was
'tarf' or 'taraf', meaning literally "side", where on the
older instruments all of the sympathetic strings were
originally arranged. See http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.steingass.1260 .

The sound of 'f' doesn't have a natural place in many
of the languages of India, in which it is usually found
only in Persian, Turkish, or Arabic loanwords. Due to
such borrowing 'f' has entered the sound repertoire of
several Indian languages, but there are many dialects
where it has not, and in which the 'f' in such loanwords
is replaced with either 'p', 'ph', or 'b', and which is the
source of the variations we see.

David
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #19 
My Guru who was from Maharashtra explained that the urdu words ending in "b" like mizrab, tarab, etc, would form the pural as mizrafi and tarafi. I have since asked other urdu speakers about this and they agreed. I and others were often corrected when anglicizing the word tarab to tarabs and mizrab to mizrabs and were told to us the correct plural.

My Guru spoke English, Marathi, Hindi and Urdu, as well as Tamil, Kashmiri version of urdu and some other south Indian languages.

I have come to know that Mizrab may be a word of Turkish origin. In Arabic in one place came this explanation: TARAB comes from the word tariba, which means "to be moved, agitated", or, alternately, "to want to move, become excited" “Tarab” which is an Arabic word meaning the transport of joy By Said I. Abdelwahed
Professor of English Literature English Department
Faculty of Arts, Al-Azhar University Gaza – Palestine

Perhaps it was just particular to the area he came from, who knows?


Bharat
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Chandran

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Reply with quote  #20 
I was taught that the root of Tarif comes from TAR meaning string
and IF you have them tuned properly, thats great!

Sorry.
I know, you are spelling it taraf anyway, but did I hear a sympathetic chuckle out there somewhere?
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hi all

There seems to be some confusion as to which term is the correct one for the sympathetic strings.

There are two words here in question, both of Arabic origin.

1. taraf, lit. meaning 'side'.

2. tarab, lit. meaning 'joy'.

Now firstly, in the Arabic language the consonantal phonemes of a word never ever change. So if you have a word with say, 'B' , it must always remain 'B' in any derivative.

Secondly, i think the word here for the symps. is the first one, TARAF.

And thirdly, Arabic words employ what is called a 'broken plural' or an internal reconfiguring for their plural form, which is in contrast to the Indo-European languages' use of a suffix to indicate the plural, such as the the 's' endings in English or the 'ha' endings in Persian or the 'hun' endings in Urdu and Hindi.

so now, the Arabic word 'taraf' becomes 'atrAf' (i.e. 'sides') in its plural form, or the Arabic word 'qA'eda' becomes 'qawA'ed (i.e. 'rules') in its plural form.

hope that this clears a few points.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #22 
Yes, but if the word is not the Arabic form but the Turkish form the endings do change.

Bharat
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #23 
If the word is not in its ORIGINAL Arabic form, then no rules apply to it except for those of the language in which its being used. SO in this case your guru should really have no problem with anyone using the 's' ending plural when you are using this word through the medium of the English language!

P.S. in the Persian language, as a rule we almost invariably 'keep' the original Arabic plural forms for any word of Arabic origin, and so, consequently does Urdu.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #24 
As I stated before, both Arabic and Turkish ( a very different language) use the word tarab. I don't know if it has the same meaning or similar or different. But if it is the Turkish form and not the Arabic form then the endings could concievably change.

You are expressing your opinion about its use in other languages, my Guru, obviously, had a different one.

Bharat
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #25 
All the following words, taraf, tarab, mizrAb (lit. 'plectrum') are of Arabic origin. Anyone who is familiar with a language that is heavily influenced by Arabic words or who's mother tongue is such a language, say like Persian, Urdu or Turkish, would instantly recognise the origin of such words.

These words are obviously not of Turkish origin because they are of Arabic origin. Now if someone uses these words in another language and uses derivatives forms attached to it from that given language which are not part of the original, then one cannot say that it is the correct form. And if we were to admit that it is the correct form, then why would it not be permissable to use this word in another language with additions given to it according to rules of this other language?

BTW gurus are allowed to be wrong.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #26 
Yes, of course Guru's are allowed to be wrong and so are we poor mortals.

Bharat
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #27 
BTW Bharat, im looking to trying and becoming a sitarnawaz, so im interested in buying a good quality but a lowish priced instrument. Can you give me some pointers, do you ship to Australia?
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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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AbdulLatif

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Reply with quote  #28 
How did we segue into discussions of dialects from SYMPATHETIC string tunings?? or is it symbhavedic shtringah.....
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"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
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Anonymous

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Reply with quote  #29 
jaan e kharabat,

I've private messaged you as it seems providing this type of info is offensive to some on the forum.

Please check your messages.

Thank you,

Bharat
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sitarman

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Reply with quote  #30 
Abdul,
It apopears that this was a Mishra Postiya, whic as you know, can introduce other themes before returning to the main gat. Gat it?
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