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yussef ali k

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi, all.

This's something I thought of as engaging: am wanting to listen/discuss w/ O.P. for some time now: 1 uppercrust Indian Ud. honestly taking chances unforeseeable for his ancestors by surrounding himself w/ west musos AND music.
Just thought it might be interesting for others as well.



P.S.: Note his fret arrangement for this ubiquitous standard
(correction: author = saxophonist Paul Desmond).

Have fun.
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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #2 
This may interest some also !

Jazz-Sitar: 'When the Saints' (Sanjeeb Sircar) Recorded about 14 years ago.


Gospel, Jazz, Fusion Song 'Down by the Riverside'. Sitar- Sanjeeb Sircar, Saxophone - Glenn Stone.


Gospel Indian Bluegrass Jam. Sitar, Djembe,Vocals,Tabla, Guitar.


Regards
http://www.sanjeebsircar.com
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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #3 
For me sitar and jazz are a bit like chocolate and chili peppers...love them both, but haven't grown accustomed to them together, yet! But this tune always made me think Indian music a bit, funny time signature, rhythm very suitable for a straight diridiri style, etc. I love that he threw in a tihai during his "solo"!
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "yussef
Hi, all.

This's something I thought of as engaging: am wanting to listen/discuss w/ O.P. for some time now: 1 uppercrust Indian Ud. honestly taking chances unforeseeable for his ancestors by surrounding himself w/ west musos AND music.
Just thought it might be interesting for others as well.



P.S.: Note his fret arrangement for this ubiquitous standard
(correction: author = saxophonist Paul Desmond).

Have fun.
I think it's mostly terrific ... but then I've been a long time fan of Irshad Khan and I had found this already some months ago. And while that piece more or less works, there are other jazzy things that he has done that don't quite work as well. While it's quite good, it would be probably utterly redundant for me to state the dead obvious fact that this particular piece, while rhythmically interesting, does not even begin to display the range of the sitar's capability (duhh). I can't say that I am at all knowlegeable about jazz, but that's in part because it ultimately does not float my boat. For me, I find the range of emotions a bit too limited or restricted and sometimes just a bit too "cool". I can honestly say that I have never yet been moved to tears by *any* bit of jazz, while the same is not true with ICM (or some western classical stuff as well).

Pascal

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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
For me, I find the range of emotions a bit too limited or restricted and sometimes just a bit too "cool". I can honestly say that I have never yet been moved to tears by *any* bit of jazz, while the same is not true with ICM (or some western classical stuff as well).
I know what you mean...some jazz to me seems to be too notey and mathematical...for the deeper, more soulful side I prefer the slower pieces that have more of a vocal/gayaki feel. This one hits me about right, for example:
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cwroyds

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Reply with quote  #6 
I love both Jazz and Sitar (ICM).
To me, Jazz and sitar do not mix.
It is the wrong instrument for the genre, and has the wrong Tone and Timbre.
In this context the sitar sounds terrible, thin, and weak.

This particular performance of "Take 5" is way too rhythmically stiff.
Jazz should have a lilt to the Rhythm, but this one hits you over the head with it.
Without the sitar it would just be very mediocre jazz.
Adding the sitar does not make it better.
It is just not very interesting to listen to.

I have heard very little music outside of ICM that suits the sitar.
Most of the examples of the sitar in other genres just falls flat.
This is one more example of a situation where sitar was not required.
(Actually in this case I wish the band would go away and let Irshad perform some good Sitar on his own.)
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "nicneufeld"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
For me, I find the range of emotions a bit too limited or restricted and sometimes just a bit too "cool". I can honestly say that I have never yet been moved to tears by *any* bit of jazz, while the same is not true with ICM (or some western classical stuff as well).
I know what you mean...some jazz to me seems to be too notey and mathematical...for the deeper, more soulful side I prefer the slower pieces that have more of a vocal/gayaki feel. This one hits me about right, for example:
"notey" I think is right if by that you mean just a bit too dense with notes but with no discernable purpose, especially modern jazz. Myself being very attracted by logic and mathematics (and having taught formal logic numerous times) it's hard for me to see mathematics of jazz whereas one can see the mathematics of tabla, and (if I knew what I was talking about!) I would possibly venture to say that I one can see - if not the mathematics - then the logic of ICM, especially the logic of the development of a raga. But the logic of Raga is simply the repository - or the container - within which the raga is developed according to its logical constraints. In jazz it seems that that the preoccupation is a bit more with the logic - or the container as it were - as opposed to what it contains. The most extreme form of this phenomena is music composed according to mathematical formulas which, while not uninteresting, is somewhat limited in its emotional content or expression. On the other hand, we all know (or should know) that a great deal of Bach's music is amenable to mathematical analysis especially when it comes to his use of contrapuntal material which, I often find quite moving. I have no doubt in my mind that Bach will still be played and analysed a thousand years from now, and that Darbari will also be played a thousand years from now, but I'm rather less sure of the staying power of jazz.

Pascal
p.s. by all means be sure to season what I say here (and anywhere else for that matter) with a generous dose of salt since I have so serious professional training in music (but wish I did) but do have some informal training and self-learning, while my formal training has been in philosophy with an emphasis towards the logic and the sciences which has, on occasion, a thing or two to say about music.

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My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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barend

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "cwroyds"
I love both Jazz and Sitar (ICM).
To me, Jazz and sitar do not mix.
It is the wrong instrument for the genre, and has the wrong Tone and Timbre.
In this context the sitar sounds terrible, thin, and weak.

This particular performance of "Take 5" is way too rhythmically stiff.
Jazz should have a lilt to the Rhythm, but this one hits you over the head with it.
Without the sitar it would just be very mediocre jazz.
Adding the sitar does not make it better.
It is just not very interesting to listen to.

I have heard very little music outside of ICM that suits the sitar.
Most of the examples of the sitar in other genres just falls flat.
This is one more example of a situation where sitar was not required.
(Actually in this case I wish the band would go away and let Irshad perform some good Sitar on his own.)
+1 very good points. I also don't like it. Don't think this performance is jazz. Also don't like the sound of the sitar in that clip. Maybe because it is amplified or something.
I prefer Anoushka's fusion stuff. That's the only sitar fusion stuff that I have heard that I like.
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "cwroyds"
I love both Jazz and Sitar (ICM).
To me, Jazz and sitar do not mix.
It is the wrong instrument for the genre, and has the wrong Tone and Timbre.
In this context the sitar sounds terrible, thin, and weak.

This particular performance of "Take 5" is way too rhythmically stiff.
Jazz should have a lilt to the Rhythm, but this one hits you over the head with it.
Without the sitar it would just be very mediocre jazz.
Adding the sitar does not make it better.
It is just not very interesting to listen to.

I have heard very little music outside of ICM that suits the sitar.
Most of the examples of the sitar in other genres just falls flat.
This is one more example of a situation where sitar was not required.
(Actually in this case I wish the band would go away and let Irshad perform some good Sitar on his own.)
Given that you love Jazz, did you mean that without the sitar it would be a very mediocre jazz *band*? Or do you this famous piece is ultimately not all it's cracked up to be, and is ... well ... just mediocre? I myself am at bit undecided but it's not of much importance to me ultimately because in, the final analysis, I simply do not like jazz well enough to feel the need to decide!

There is one possible genre that might suit the sitar namely (and you may hate this ...) new age stuff, some of which I think it quite good. For example Al Gromer Khan makes very good (if brief) use of the sitar in some of his stuff (trained by UVK I believe). See his SPACE HOTEL for example - where he uses the sitar very sparingly but to good effects.


Pascal

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cwroyds

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Reply with quote  #10 
Pascal,

I am referring to the band.
They are playing mediocre "jazz", and adding the sitar does not help.
There is a lot of mediocre jazz out there in general.

The jazz piece they are attempting is a good one.
The Composer, Dave Brubeck, is his own thing.
His style of Jazz is very much his own.
Here is his original version of the song in question.


I must say the term "Jazz" is pretty broad.
Jazz has been around for many decades and has evolved massively from decade to decade.
"New Orleans jazz dating from the early 1910s, Big Band Swing, Kansas City jazz and Gypsy jazz from the 1930s and 1940s, Bebop from the mid-1940s and on down through West Coast jazz, cool jazz, avant-garde jazz, Afro-Cuban jazz, modal jazz, free jazz, Latin jazz in various forms, soul jazz, jazz fusion and jazz rock, smooth jazz, jazz-funk, punk jazz, acid jazz, ethno jazz, jazz rap, cyber jazz, Indo jazz, M-Base, nu jazz, urban jazz and other ways of playing the music". (List from Wikipedia)

I think it is odd when someone says "I don't like Jazz".
Well, specifically which Jazz is it that you don't like.
There are so many styles of jazz and they are all related, but they are all very different from each other.

Reading all these posts against jazz makes me think you guys have simply not had enough exposure to the variety of Jazz that exists.
Go listen to some old early Dixieland Jazz.
Then go listen to some old Django Reinhardt or Charlie Christian, or some Big Band music.
Go listen to some Bebop: Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, etc.
Then try some later types of Jazz.
You will see that they are all very different.
They are trying to reach different places.
Some styles you will like, and others you will not like, but I am certain there is music in the broad spectrum that you will appreciate.

Jazz is definitely a music that is better when you are knowledgeable about the music.
ICM is the same way.
On first listening, ICM can sound to the uninitiated as random meandering make-em-ups.
Once you understand what they are trying to do, you get it.
Suddenly the music is far more interesting.
I am still finding things in ICM that I used to dislike, but now find fascinating.

AND like ICM, most of the Jazz you hear out there is mediocre.
Stick to the "great" players and you will have better luck at finding something profound and inspiring.
If you were initiating someone into listening to the Sitar, you would give them a list of all the great players to listen to.
It is the same way with Jazz. Listen to the top of the heap and you will find incredible performances that will kick your butt.

This sitar laden "Take 5" is simply weak mediocre Jazz, and the addition of the sitar does not raise it out of its mediocre malaise.
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "cwroyds"
Pascal,


I think it is odd when someone says "I don't like Jazz".
Well, specifically which Jazz is it that you don't like.
There are so many styles of jazz and they are all related, but they are all very different from each other.
Speaking for myself, I'm well aware that there's a wide variety and styles of jazz, and what I actually said were two things: 1) There's not *any* of jazz that moves me to tears and 2) ultimately jazz does not float my boat.
Quote:
Reading all these posts against jazz makes me think you guys have simply not had enough exposure to the variety of Jazz that exists.
Go listen to some old early Dixieland Jazz.
Then go listen to some old Django Reinhardt or Charlie Christian, or some Big Band music.
Go listen to some Bebop: Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, etc.
Then try some later types of Jazz.
You will see that they are all very different.
They are trying to reach different places.
Some styles you will like, and others you will not like, but I am certain there is music in the broad spectrum that you will appreciate.
actually though I do not like Jazz I did not say that I do not listen to it. My local public radio station here plays 3 hours of jazz every sunday night and I've listened nearly every sunday to different bits of it for over 10 years. The program (jazz unlimited) is put together and narrated by a well known local authority on jazz history in the st louis area where I live, namely Dennis Owsley wrote an award-winning book, City of Gabriels—The Jazz History of St. Louis 1895-1973.

All the names you mention above are quite familiar to me. Indeed, in the coming month I can look forward to listening to some of the following
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dennis
Jazz Giants for the months of September and October 2012: Jimmy Blanton, Hamiet Bluiett, Lester Bowie, Clifford Brown, Ray Brown, John Coltrane, Dizzy Gillespie, Dave Holland, Elvin Jones, Lee Konitz, Oliver Lake, Thelonious Monk, Jelly Roll Morton, Art Pepper, Oscar Pettiford, Buddy Rich, Sonny Rollins, Horace Silver, Art Tatum and Gerald Wilson.
And the thing of it is , I've already heard a least one composition from each of them already, and it is far more likely that I've heard probably several compositions from several of the names above.

And I can safely repeat my two initial assertions: 1) There is not *any* of it that moves me to tears unlike certain gems in ICM and also western classical music, and 2) ultimately jazz does not float my boat, where "ultimately" is meant to imply that it is *after* giving jazz a fair hearing, but which I did not say explicitly.

If I were to get more specific, I might say that I much prefer Art Tatum to Coltrane or T. Monk whose music I frequently find exasperatingly remote and unreachable, almost as if they are deliberately trying to alienate their listeners, or makes thinks more difficult and unpleasant than need me.
Quote:
Jazz is definitely a music that is better when you are knowledgeable about the music.
ICM is the same way.
On first listening, ICM can sound to the uninitiated as random meandering make-em-ups.
Once you understand what they are trying to do, you get it.
Suddenly the music is far more interesting.
I am still finding things in ICM that I used to dislike, but now find fascinating.
On that score I could not agree more with you. I remember in my own experience how much of ICM seemed to do exactly that, just meander about almost aimlessly, *howeover* I had occasioanlly stumbled on some gems that spoke to me the very second I heard it. Kishori Amonkar singing rag Bhoop. Salamat Ali Khan and Nazakat Ali khan singing Darbari or Abhogi kanada, Nikhil Banerjee playing Rageshree, and so on. These gems among others is what kept me looking for such gems in ICM in the course of which I learned to appreciate that there were other worthy pieces that, while not gems, were still precious in their own rights once they were better understood. Generally speaking, it seems to me that the appreciation of nearly anything and everything can be measurably increased with greater knowledge of that thing. For that reason I was bound to agree with your first point above.

My concluding point then is this: It is those singular almost mystical experiences with those rare gems of ICM that I simply find lacking in jazz and *never* ever had with *any* piece of jazz in spite of the long long list of nearly all of its luminaries that I have tried to listen to.

ICM illuminates my soul, Jazz merely irritates it.

Pascal
p.s. that last overly "clever" sentence is just a throwaway line .... it sounds good, but I don't actually believe jazz irritates my sould! Maybe putting it there is a little bit like ending a complex tihai on sam , or maybe it's more like a tiny little mukhada at the end of a composition!
p.s.s. being an atheist, I used the term "mystical" in a metaphorical rather than a literal sense.

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cwroyds

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Reply with quote  #12 
There are certainly many types of music that I do not enjoy.
You certainly don't have to like Jazz.
As my Grandmother used to say "To each his own, said the old lady as she kissed her pig".
Everyone has their own tastes in music and art.

Luckily we all love ICM, but it is nice to occasionally debate on a tangent.
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yussef ali k

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Reply with quote  #13 
Hi, all: Thanks for the replies.

Sanjeeb,
I'd already listened to your links, thank you.
Am more interested in the discussion (see the 1st post above) since I'm curious about how this effort is seen from Delhi.

NNeufeld,
#1: Ok, I tend to actually appreciate black choc w/chillies!
#2 (notey):
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cwroyds

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Reply with quote  #14 
You are absolutely correct.
Paul Desmond wrote "Take 5" and played it with Dave Brubeck.
Thanks for the correction.
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yussef ali k

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hi,all.

Concerning the sitar/jazz, (I'd also like to to borrow some CWRterminology) to state another opinion, = there are more chances 4 the str in jazz outside 'core jazz':

There is the 'horn gayaki' and all the arpeggiation, which is made very hard on a single string (GP's have 2, but no stringcrossing traditional playing) and using 2 LH fingers for fretting;

Then, there's the cik: how to make it cope w/ cycles like blues or Rhythm Changes, for ex.?.

Sound/Timbre-wise I'd agree w/CWR, but regarding the IrshK clip: that was 1 of the reasons I posted (to my ear, Anoushka's are much better than THAT, which also doesn't rule out that IMO he has the best tone in his family/generation when he's playing acoustic=ICM).

Not doable? - Certainly worth a thought (look at the gtr in ICM, for ex.).

Care to reply svp.
Have fun.
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