Indian Music Forums

Sitar question--Subdued Ma string sound MELODIC INSTRUMENTS
Reply
Junior Member 14 posts NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
Hi, Everyone,
I am new to the forum and am excited to join. I am a disciple of my guruji Hasu Patel and have played sitar for a few decades.That said, I am relative novice when it comes to sitar maintenance. I have a middle of the range sitar with new middle-grade strings. I have a lower bridge and a relatively thin sounding board. My Ma string right now is very subdued or submerged. My chikari strings overpower it. The overall sound reminds me more of a rudra veena. I am looking for a technique or two to get the sound to pop out. I have tried my usual jivari techniques of bridge sanding. I have even tried a little cotton thread near the base of the bridge. If anyone has any insight into the exact placement of the thread, that would be immensely helpful. I dare not do anything more drastic, as I respect the process of jivari enough to know it cannot be taught through Youtube videos. 
Namaste,
Nick
Reply 0 0
mizrable Senior Member 149 posts
mizrable
try a coated wired like 
pyramid or mapes…
you could also try removing your pa chikari …
Reply 0 0
musicslug Senior Member 345 posts
musicslug
sounds like the jawari needs to be more open. I don't think putting a thread under the string is the solution. if you haven't already tried it, put some graphite on the bridge next to the M string, flex the string a few times. ideally you want a nice delta shape without gaps that extends most of the way back from the front edge of the bridge. if the delta looks fine, you might need to increase the slope (open the jawari) - or have someone else do it. good luck.
Reply 0 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
Thanks for the immediate assistance! 

Remember I am relatively new to sitar maintenance. I have been doing a good bit of reading on this forum and elsewhere, but I am still struggling with the basic "open" vs. "closed" terminology.

I found a good discussion on this site about it, but a lot of significane hinges on what the participants mean by "front of bridge" and "back of bridge."

Would someone be willing to draw a quick image of a RS vs UVK jawari bridge for me as an initial roadmap?

My teacher is a disciple of Ustad Viliyat Khan, but I guess you have to work with the peculiarities of the instrument you have in the moment. 

I am just looking to brighten to sound. 

If anyone can link anything about the physics behind all this I would love to dip my toe into the math. This whole process is literally blowing my mind. So amazing!!!! All praises to the gurujiis!!!

Nick
Reply 0 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
To further clarify my follow-up question, I am finding what appear to me contradictory charts online. For the sake of discussion, let's characterize the front of the bridge as the part of the bridge nearest to the frets. 

Articulation 1:

Brian Godden's 2000 manual (available on Scriblr) characterizes the difference between open vs. closed jawari in relation to the parabola in the back of the bridge. 

All three styles have a similar rounding at the front of the bridge.

His charts are copyright protected, so I will do my best to describe.

RS: Open/Soft: The longest vibrating surface

Rounded front of bridge, "longest vibrating surface," short, slight decline to back of bridge

VK: Closed/Hard: Smallest jawari surface

Rounded front of bridge, "smallest jawari surface," steep decline to back of bridge

***Note that the author has exaggerated the surface curves by at least 50% so that the differences can be seen

Articulation 2:

On SitarFactory, the difference between open and closed jawari in relation to the parabola in the front of the bridge. 

In both styles considered, the back of the bridge has a similar rounding. 

Check out SF's charts:

First, a basic jawari chart to help orient us get oriented.

HTjiwari1.jpg

RV: Open/Khula: 
HTjiwari2.jpg

VK: Closed/Band:
HTjiwari3.jpg


Final thoughts:

As an academic, I am very much used to using words that actually mean the opposite of what they are saying. "Closed" means more open space between bridge and string as in Godden's chart. But I am hoping that is not the case. Let me know if I am missing something.

As a beginning technician, I certainly find SF's diagrams more appealing. Let me know if there is anything you would add to SF's open diagram.  

Thanks again!
Reply 0 0
musicslug Senior Member 345 posts
musicslug
I'm told the physics have to do with what are called 'nodal points'. the slope of the bridge results in different heights from the surface of the bridge to the underside of the string. 'front of bridge' is the side facing the frets. if I were in your situation, I'd take a deep breath and do a very light bit of jawari: loosen the strings, set them to either side of the bridge. wrap a piece of 160 grit sandpaper around a flat file. do 5-10 side-to-side strokes designed to make the front of the bridge lower. put the strings back on and see if anything changed. if it did, and it's an improvement, you're headed in the right direction. play it for a few days. if it's stable and you like the sound, but still not what you want, repeat. baby steps - don't try to do it all at once.
Reply 0 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
Thanks, musicslug! Good advice.
I am coming off a rough couple months with my instrument.
With my old bridge, I developed a nasty buzz on my Ma string on almost every fret, and I fought it tooth and nail. I eventually decided to switch it out for a different bridge which I did a little work on --- like you described above --- and am very happy with the results --- with the exception of the dampened sound on the Ma. I'll bring up the topic of the other bridge when I feel up to it. Until then, I will let Yaman Kaylan renew me. I just dug back into that one for the first time in many years. There are a lot of wonders in the Ga, Ma, Pa interaction. Listening a lot to Bhimsen Joshi's versions these days. 
Be well! 
Reply 0 0
musicslug Senior Member 345 posts
musicslug
hmmm. as a rudra vina player (each melody string has its own jawari), I'd be tempted to fabricate a miniature sanding block, use it to open up the jawari under the ma string - but that's strictly verboten (if you do it, don't tell anyone). good luck!
Reply 1 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
Mum's the word!
Reply 0 0
Lars Senior Member 1,683 posts
Lars
Drawings can only give you a little idea. Despite the many claims there's no mystery to it, just the basic principles and a lot of practice. Different people do it different ways. And the curves are very small, smaller than any diagram usually. The easiest jawari to do is closed, I have a theory that's why it came into fashion. Open is the hardest and very few do it well. You have an apex point, for open it's near the string slots in the back with a very gentle slope to the front shaped to taste and creates the buzziness. But it has to be done so the character is retained while playing all the way up the frets. Closed jawari the apex point is toward the front with a slope to the back = more tension/energy and the tone is not as buzzy but better for sympathetic response if the structure is good and sympathetic jawari is open. Can be a nice combination.
Round is anything in between in reality but for reference the apex is near the middle of the bridge and just very slight. The bevel on the very front of the bridge is for the highest notes, some makers don't do it.
Usually on the instruments I work on I favor a more round main bridge and open sympathetic so you get a nice sustain but good resonance.
You can also do strings individually if needed, if you're doing a full bridge then after each string is done best to blend the entire surface together with a light sanding so you don't have any chisel marks that can catch the string and cause jumping.
http://www.raincitymusic.com
Reply 3 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
Thanks for the help, Lars. Very clarifying.

One follow-up question about closed jawari:

On the back of the bridge, do the strings ever lift off the bridge? Or if you were removing material from the back of the bridge that took you down slightly lower than the existing string corridors---then you would then use a razor saw to cut the corridor down to the meet the string---maintaining a slightly downward angle?

Note that I am not trying this in actuality. I am just playing it out in theory --- thinking through some of the diagrams in Godden's essay.
...
On another note, I checked out your site, Lars. You have an amazing stock of sitar accessories. I was wondering if I could order a rounded jiwari bridge from you. I remember reading on another thread that the best teaching tool when beginning is a solid example from a master technician. 

Nick
Reply 0 0
Lars Senior Member 1,683 posts
Lars
NPotka wrote:
Thanks for the help, Lars. Very clarifying.

One follow-up question about closed jawari:

On the back of the bridge, do the strings ever lift off the bridge? Or if you were removing material from the back of the bridge that took you down slightly lower than the existing string corridors---then you would then use a razor saw to cut the corridor down to the meet the string---maintaining a slightly downward angle?

Note that I am not trying this in actuality. I am just playing it out in theory --- thinking through some of the diagrams in Godden's essay.
...
On another note, I checked out your site, Lars. You have an amazing stock of sitar accessories. I was wondering if I could order a rounded jiwari bridge from you. I remember reading on another thread that the best teaching tool when beginning is a solid example from a master technician. 

Nick


String should follow the bridge all the way back without gaps. You can email me about the other things if you like, I have a lot of options.
http://www.raincitymusic.com
Reply 0 0
mike hooker Senior Member 141 posts
mike hooker
i have been doing my own jawari for many years. i do it differently than most, but it works for me. when trying to work out the sound on a particular string, i focus only on that string. instead of filing or sanding across the bridge, i only do it under that one string, and the area it would be on during a big meend.  to get the sound right, i use a  very thin thread and slide it under an open string until i get the sound i want. it that point, i know that the bone immediately ahead of that thread was a high spot. i take it down with the edge of a razor  blade, the blade straight down same direction as the string. a back and forth scraping takes down a tiny bit just ahead of the thread. remove the thread, and check your sound. if you like it, then you go to the lowest fret and check. if good, go up a fret. within a fret or two, you will lose the jawari. again with the thread, find your sound, and then take down some bone in front of the thread. . do that all the way up the neck.  i dont like to file completely across the bridge, then you are affecting all the strings. they can often not have the same needs, and you make it worse. keep in mind, this works best on bridges that were good, and have gone out from playing. sometimes just a very slight repositioning of the bridge will bring back the sound you want, with no filing needed. and yeah, its part voodoo.
Reply 0 0
NPotka Junior Member 14 posts
NPotka
mike hooker wrote:
i have been doing my own jawari for many years. i do it differently than most, but it works for me. when trying to work out the sound on a particular string, i focus only on that string. instead of filing or sanding across the bridge, i only do it under that one string, and the area it would be on during a big meend.  to get the sound right, i use a  very thin thread and slide it under an open string until i get the sound i want. it that point, i know that the bone immediately ahead of that thread was a high spot. i take it down with the edge of a razor  blade, the blade straight down same direction as the string. a back and forth scraping takes down a tiny bit just ahead of the thread. remove the thread, and check your sound. if you like it, then you go to the lowest fret and check. if good, go up a fret. within a fret or two, you will lose the jawari. again with the thread, find your sound, and then take down some bone in front of the thread. . do that all the way up the neck.  i dont like to file completely across the bridge, then you are affecting all the strings. they can often not have the same needs, and you make it worse. keep in mind, this works best on bridges that were good, and have gone out from playing. sometimes just a very slight repositioning of the bridge will bring back the sound you want, with no filing needed. and yeah, its part voodoo.
Very cool. Do you favor a more open jawari? Voodoo indeed! Nick
Reply 0 0
mike hooker Senior Member 141 posts
mike hooker
not a fan of open. sounds like movie sitar.
Reply 0 0
Reply