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hbajpai

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Reply with quote  #1 


Nice Solo.

Without looking him up, see how quickly can you guess the Gharana he belongs to.

Longer solo, different venue.

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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'll take a stab at it.

I don't think he's from the Lucknow gharana as I saw very little work on "sur".

I don't think he's from the Ajrara gharana as I don't hear much "ge re na ges" .

I don't think he's from the Benares gharana as I don't hear much "dha ge na dha" stuff

I'm left with 3 more gharanas but uncertain about how to narrow it down to one.

I'm going with the Dehli gharana because he seems to play the ta/na fairly far out on the rim.

(let me the first to say that my "analysis" is really more guesswork than anything else ... so my chances of being right are about 1/6!)

postscript: I've not been able to find info on the correct answer, but I have a feeling now that it's probably the Punjab gharana ... and I say this only because I'm under the (possibly mistaken) impression that many Sikhs tend to be from that gharana.

(I have a feeling I'm going to need a make-up quiz since I think I'm failing this one!)


Pascal

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Liquid

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Reply with quote  #3 
Without a doubt Benares Gharana.
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nkodikal

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Reply with quote  #4 
Solid Banaras no doubt
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Liquid"
Without a doubt Benares Gharana.
What's the deciding factor?

Pascal

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hbajpai

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Reply with quote  #6 
For 10 Dha's you are RIGHT! nkodikal & liquid. :-)

Benares is the right answer.

How quickly did or at what point did you recognize it?

I was 98 pct sure within the first few minutes of the start with the utthan and a 100 pct sure at the first strike of "dheeg" or dhig and expected teen taal kisme to begin and on cue they did.

Such a cool feeling. At least for me.
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sohummusicals

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "hbajpai"
For 10 Dha's you are RIGHT! nkodikal & liquid. :-)

Benares is the right answer.

How quickly did or at what point did you recognize it?

I was 98 pct sure within the first few minutes of the start with the utthan and a 100 pct sure at the first strike of "dheeg" or dhig and expected teen taal kisme to begin and on cue they did.

Such a cool feeling. At least for me.
Wonderful!!!!
His total style is representing Benaras Gharana. Quite Manly, Thats how it is.
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dinegine

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Liquid"
Without a doubt Benares Gharana.
What's the deciding factor?

Pascal
This a very good question and deserves a proper answer

It would be good if some Benares players (as well as non-Benares) come forward to point out characteristic aspects.

For me (and i stand to be corrected) some characteristics are:
the heavy articulation of Bayan suggests Benares.
The use of Uthan in the beginning, using phrases like 'trake dhit dhit' and heavy use pakhawaj bols and phrases like tete kote godi gene
the use of successive extended tehais, some with with long gaps between dhas ( a characteristic )
there is very little (if any) use of individual fingering on the right hand - (ruling out Delhi)
There is no use of kaida
All themes primarily employ the use of layakari when developing the theme
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dinegine"

For me (and i stand to be corrected) some characteristics are:
the heavy articulation of Bayan suggests Benares.
The use of Uthan in the beginning, using phrases like 'trake dhit dhit' and heavy use pakhawaj bols and phrases like tete kote godi gene
the use of successive extended tehais, some with with long gaps between dhas ( a characteristic )
there is very little (if any) use of individual fingering on the right hand - (ruling out Delhi)
There is no use of kaida
All themes primarily employ the use of layakari when developing the theme
First I want to thank you for taking time to answer my question.

I had noticed some, but certainly not all, of the features you mention above. The heavy articulation of the bayan certainly evident in the second video (and regretably not in the first video since the bayan was not properly recorded - bad microphone apparently).

I'm a bit unclear as to what you mean exactly "individual fingering" not being used much. Do you mean, for example, very little 2 finger "te te"?

I had not fully noticed the use of "tete kata gadi gena" - but I think I see/hear it more clearly now, and seems to occur in the context of a rela. However, I was under the impression that this pakhawaj style was actually a feature of the Punjab gharana, not the Benares Gharana. This might make sense since S. Gurinder Singh has 2 teachers, Sh. Sukhvinder Singh Pinky ji of the Benares gharana and Pandit Rama Kant ji of the punjab gharana.

"No use of kaida": that's a very surprising feature! I just thought I didn't recognize what I thought were kaidas! In any case, Benares gharana of course has many kaidas, but are you saying that this gharana sometimes simply foregoes playing them?

You say that layakari is used to develop themes, but if no kaidas are played, they are themes to what exactly? Just relas for the most part? Or possibly various gats?


Pascal
p.s. I just now read in David Courtney's book "A Focus of the Kaidas of Tabla" that the Punjab gharana was indeed originally a Pakhawaj gharana (Courtney, page 112).

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My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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hbajpai

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Posts: 892
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dinegine"
For me (and i stand to be corrected) some characteristics are:
the heavy articulation of Bayan suggests Benares.
The use of Uthan in the beginning, using phrases like 'trake dhit dhit' and heavy use pakhawaj bols and phrases like tete kote godi gene
the use of successive extended tehais, some with with long gaps between dhas ( a characteristic )
there is very little (if any) use of individual fingering on the right hand - (ruling out Delhi)
There is no use of kaida
All themes primarily employ the use of layakari when developing the theme
Dhinegine, first of all a very cool moniker. It's my most favorite bol particularly for its morphing capability.

Now, to your point. First, I am not officially trained in the Benares Gharana. I agree with all your statements except one. All your statements in general identify the classic "deciding factors".
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dinegine"
There is no use of kaida
Maybe lesser use of Kaidas when describing the characteristics of the Gharana is more appropriate. Certainly there is a clear identified list of Beneras Kaidas. They may resemble kaidas from other Gharana's, but we still consider them as Benares Kaidas. I feel....

BTW...

Did you know that even within the Beneras Gharana, there was one school of thought that emphasized laykari and the mathematics while the other was not necessarily AS focused on the Mathematics. I am not sure if one can correlate this to another fact that within the Benares Gharana, there is a clear line of identification between folks that learned Tabla from a Muslim Ustad versus a Hindu Pandit.

Just adding a few, personal findings to your list that are more widely applicable than just the example video links from this post.

1. More Padanath's
2. Not just articulation, but just an overall, heavy use of the Baya.
3. I feel, more catered towards Kathak and accompaniment as opposed to a solo. However, then I question myself on the emphasis on Padhant.
4. Benares folks are rather largely seen with roped, pot bellied baya
5. Someone else confirm or deny this, but, I once herd and not from an authoritative source that Benares people used monkey skins on their baya :!: Maybe an urban myth.
6. Benares is considered as the sister Gharana of Lukhnow since the founder Pdt. Ram Sahai was trained in Lukhnow.
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dinegine

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "hbajpai"

Now, to your point. First, I am not officially trained in the Benares Gharana. I agree with all your statements except one. All your statements in general identify the classic "deciding factors".
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dinegine"
There is no use of kaida
Maybe lesser use of Kaidas when describing the characteristics of the Gharana is more appropriate. Certainly there is a clear identified list of Beneras Kaidas. They may resemble kaidas from other Gharana's, but we still consider them as Benares Kaidas. I feel....
Thanks for you reply, there are few things in there that I couldn't possibly comment on,

but with regards the issue of kaida. I would say that I did not hear anything played in the Harivallah solo in this clip, that I would consider a kaida by its generally understood definition.
Can you please indicate where you hear kaida in this clip and explain what makes this example a kaida?
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evening84

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "hbajpai"
I once herd and not from an authoritative source that Benares people used monkey skins on their baya :!: Maybe an urban myth.
I am going to a zoo next week .. this is the last thing I wanted stuck in my head ...

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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #13 
A very very small observation: David Courtney notes that some exponent of the Benares gharana sometimes sit on their knees instead of cross legged (Focus on the Kaidas of Tabla, page 100, Courtney), and indeed while watching my favorite of the two solos, S. Gurinder Singh does exactly that if I'm not mistaken at about 18:50 into the shorter solo (the one where the bayan is properly recorded).

...

The uthan (which I think I initially mistook for a peshkar!) was apparently a crucial factor apparently since, unlike in other gharanas, they seem to go on forever in the Benares style of playing. Just for the sake of contrast and comparison, here's a nice example of a small but lovely uthan (albeit Farukhabad gharana) here demonstrated by Debu Nayak.





Pascal

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My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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hbajpai

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Posts: 892
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "dinegine"
but with regards the issue of kaida. I would say that I did not hear anything played in the Harivallah solo in this clip, that I would consider a kaida by its generally understood definition.
Can you please indicate where you hear kaida in this clip and explain what makes this example a kaida?
I did not watch the video from the beginning for this particular response. I randomly moved the cue slider to around 18 and at 1905 I found what I would consider would be a kaida. What do you think :?:
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