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Rikhi Ram Sitar Help MELODIC INSTRUMENTS
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Senior Member 1,937 posts Sitarfixer Senior Member 1,937 posts
Sitarfixer
Namaste, Beenkarji.
Well, now. Given all that I've had to endure getting what I've gotten in instruments; all the seemingly unnecessary extra man hours of work to bring the work standard up to an acceptable level; chiseling, sanding and sawing for days on end; argueing on and on with tradition locked thinking, fighting to even keep the selected materials in place during construction; redoing work through someone elses "better idea" - you get my point. By doing all the work myself here in the USA, I'm actually taking a holiday and getting a totally superior product in the bargain! Just call me "Hercules". I've also provided the shop a nice assortment of tools, sandpaper, all good stuff. What's become of it, I have no idea. I sure haven't seen any of that stuff in use. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. TNX for the nudge and well wishing. Being here makes it all a soon to be reality. Cheers!
http://www.karaseksound.com/
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dhruvsodha Senior Member 112 posts
dhruvsodha
Hi to all you helpful people,

I would firstly like to thank you for helping me whenever help is needed regarding the sitar. I am buying a new sitar as my current one has been terribly damaged and is totally "unrepairable". I shall be going to India at the end of the year and therefore need help buying a new sitar.

I plan on buying a sitar from sanjay sharma's rikhi ram. I was referred to their website by him but their website (http://www.rikhiram.org) has exactly the same explanation for all 6 different Ravi Shankar style sitars ! The pictures are somewhat different though. He has quoted me the following:

Pt Ravi Shankar Model
1. Student------------------------------------------------Rs 18,000.00
2. Artist----------------------------------------------------Rs 28,000.00
3. Pro Tun-------------------------------------------------Rs 32,000.00
4. Pro teak------------------------------------------------Rs 40,000.00
5. Grand pro tun----------------------------------------Rs 45,000.00
6. Grand pro teak--------------------------------------Rs 55,000.00

I have no idea at all what the difference between these sitars are.
An artist or maybe even a pro tun sitar is in my budget as the thermofibre case is another Rs10000 more!! Please help differentiate between those two sitars. Is the price worth it or am i being ripped off :?: Are there the same amount of strings in both? Is the tonal quality better in the one? Did anyone buy any of these two specific sitars? Could the exact same sitar or similar quality be bought somewhere else in India for a better price? I am going to be keeping the sitar for the rest of my life and that is why i am scared to buy the wrong sitar and regret it later. Please comment on them if you have the time to..I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL THE HELP RECEIVED... THANK YOU


Sanjay has stopped replying to my emails and i am therefore clueless. PS: there are more pictures of the rikhi ram pro tun sitar on sitarsetc.com website
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Sitarfixer Senior Member 1,937 posts
Sitarfixer
HOLY @&$% ! ! ! Are these prices for real ! ! ! If you are buying such an instrument in the USA - ok. You're covering a lot of shipping costs. If that is the price being charged in India, you are getting gas light big time. Ain't no way you should pay more than Rs. 30,000 for a full carved teak sitar. NO WAY ! ! ! Tun full carved should run around Rs. 20,000 - 22,000. That's a generous retail mark up included. What you are paying for is a boutique label. If that is of value to you and you can afford to throw your money away, go for it. This is nuts! The ongoing rape and exploitation of the ferengi shopper has really gotten out of hand. How dare these con meisters lay out such prices! Please think long, hard and carefully before being swindled out of your money. It's bad enough the general tourist body in India has to deal with cut throat taxi drivers, "guides", shop keepers and the rest of that miserable lot of common scum. This price gouging from a dealer with a respected name and heritage just floors me! Disgraceful ! Shame !
http://www.karaseksound.com/
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Lily 112 posts
Lily
I think the best way for anyone to get a good instrument is to, if at all possible:1) Play it first. 2) Purchase it from a repected dealer that has a return policy. 3) Have an experienced player hand select one for you.
Lily
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trippy monkey 4,281 posts
trippy monkey
Here Here Tony!!!!!!!!

Even your prices quoted are a bit pushing it, so to speak.
Abroad maybe but IN India. NO WAY!!!!

This only makes me more determined to seriously think about my own import business in the UK.

Nick
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dhruvsodha Senior Member 112 posts
dhruvsodha
Ooooo!!! i had no idea that these prices are terribly expensive. Rikhi Ram sitars are the best though. was mislead by Sanjay when he said these are very good prices he has quoted me. Could anyone possibly refer me to someone in India that sells sitars as good a Rikhi Ram's but at a better price. I. Hiren Roy is closing down, so their shop is off my list! Please refer me to someone else...
Thanks,
Dhruv
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
As a first-time-in-India buyer I would say your two best options are buying an RA Sitarmaker sitar at DMS in Old Delhi. If you're going to be in Calcutta go to Monoj Kumar Sardar. Buy their top-of-the-line sitar and you will get a lot bang for your buck (or ras for your rupee). Forget Rikhi Ram. As a tourist - you will NEVER EVER get anything resembling real value for your money. Krishna Bhatt had a Rikhi Ram sitar custom built not so long ago and paid top dollar and it turned out to be a worthless piece of shite and the decoration was abysmal. And he's a famous and much beloved Indian Pandit. That any old nobody tourist could ever get a first-class instrument from Rikhi Ram anymore - is an illusion. Ashwin Batish was there not so long ago - and tried out more than 20 sitars and was so disgusted that he told them "Keep my money." and he walked out the door with no sitar. They were finally shamed, and came running after him and eventually showed him the one good sitar in the entire shop that they had been hiding. Unless your name is Shujaat Khan or Ravi Shankar the greedy trickster clowns will rip you off every time. Forget about whether it is Sanjay or Ajay. Just two different sides of the same bad penny - living off a reputation they haven't deserved in a long long time.
Keshav
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The Rover 78 posts
The Rover
Keshav Das wrote:
Quote:
Unless your name is Shujaat Khan or Ravi Shankar the greedy trickster clowns will rip you off every time. Forget about whether it is Sanjay or Ajay. Just two different sides of the same bad penny - living off a reputation they haven't deserved in a long long time.
Trickster clowns? Wow, that’s pretty harsh. What say we lay of the ad hominem attacks, eh?

Kehsav wrote:
Quote:
Forget Rikhi Ram. As a tourist - you will NEVER EVER get anything resembling real value for your money.
Allow me to present a view that I have done so previously.

I’m no proponent of one maker or another. But Can you blame the sharma bros for simply follow supply and demand? They sell at whatever the market can sustain. Its called capitalism, and as a shop owner, you should know exactly what it means. And if you were building sitars, and only a small percentage of them were very good, why would you hand that baby that you slaved over to someone who doesn’t know how to hold it? In my mind, tourists enter any shop at their own risk. Caveat emptor. And why the heck would a first time sitar buyer go to Rikhi Ram? Or Hiren Roy, Or Hemen? (Hiren Roy has produces their share of firewood, don’t anyone try to deny it). Again, I ask you—would just hand over keys to a Ferrari Enzo to a kid who just got his learners permit? They build student models for a reason! SO YOU LEARN HOW TO PLAY BEFORE BUYING A BIG BOY SITAR! These are, afterall, hand made instruments that take a lot of time and labor. I see nothing wrong with having to try out 20 sitars before finding a good one. that shows that they won’t hand over their good stuff to any old fool with a fat wallet. Would you? I wouldn’t. I would save it for someone who can play! And if someone walks out satisfied with sweatshop special, then he probably didn’t have a clue anyway. And how many sitars do Shujat Khan and Ravi Shankar get anyway? Its not like they get a new one every year and therefore corner the market!

Listin, Dhruvsodha, take Keshav’s totally valid advice, and go buy yourself a bike with training wheels. Leave the Riki Rams for the playas. Maybe all the tourists will stop buying, the tourist inflation index will fall, and they will be back to what they do best…making a small number of the sitars that can be counted among the best in India. Wait, what am I thinking…go buy a rikhi ram! the more people buy the mass produced rikhis, the more time ajay and sanjay have to spend on making a few good ones! Heck, they probably make the same number of good sitars as they always have, but jack up the quantity of the junkers to satisfy the massive demand created by the rush of crazed westerners with fists full of dollars! I will repeat what Keshav has written himself: “At least with Rikhi Ram – if you buy a low-end instrument – it will really be several grades above the usual firewood.”

As far as Pandit Krisha Bhatt’s custom built sitar: I have said before and I’ll say it again. Sitars can be duds. They are like people, and some just don’t turn out well. Too many variables. Even when put together well, and all the friviolous carving was top notch, it could still be missing that intangible that makes a great sitar. If it turned out to be a dud, then he should bring it back. And they should make him another and another until he is happy with it.

For easier comparisons I converted the prices that were listed to USD at current rate of 43 INR per USD (rate changes, I saw it as 42.7.

Student--------------------------------Rs 18,000.00 = approx 418 USD
2. Artist--------------------------------Rs 28,000.00 = approx. 651 USD
3. Pro Tun-----------------------------Rs 32,000.00 = approx 744 USD
4. Pro teak----------------------------Rs 40,000.00 = approx 930 USD
5. Grand pro tun----------------------Rs 45,000.00 = approx 1046 USD
6. Grand pro teak---------------------Rs 55,000.00= approx 1279.USD

Sitarfixer

Correct me if I am wrong, but I though you were selling student models for 18,000? If so, Sanjay isn't so far off the mark, is he?

Peace,

R O V E R
theRover
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Sitarfixer Senior Member 1,937 posts
Sitarfixer
Nope ! The two student models (ranked by bridge and trim only) were priced at Rs. 12,000 in Poontown. My full carved ones went for Rs. 22,000 there.

There is an obvious need to fill the American - Euro market demand for sitars. Just look at eBay ! The quality aspect, or lack thereof combined with rip off prices to an ill informed buyer is what has me on fire. Firewood is great for the beginner. Charging $2,000 or more for that same piece of firewood is not right. Telling a customer a warped neck is supposed to be that way is also not right. Want pics that illustrate these points ? I've got plenty. Ill fits. Sapwood. Mismatched parts. File skid marks all prominently displayed on Delhi and Calcuttas finest. What a show ! !

Maybe I shouldn't complain. These instruments are now making their way to me for repairs and restoration. I sure do feel sorry though for the customer who gets duped by brand name recognition and nothing else. Cheers!
http://www.karaseksound.com/
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Jason Senior Member 156 posts
Jason
Quote:
And why the heck would a first time sitar buyer go to Rikhi Ram? Or Hiren Roy, Or Hemen? (Hiren Roy has produces their share of firewood, don’t anyone try to deny it). Again, I ask you—would just hand over keys to a Ferrari Enzo to a kid who just got his learners permit? They build student models for a reason! SO YOU LEARN HOW TO PLAY BEFORE BUYING A BIG BOY SITAR!
Rover, I have a different opinion on this matter.

I believe that if someone loves the music and really wants to learn, they should buy the best instrument that they can possibly find and/or afford. If they are not confident in judging the quality of a given instrument, they ought to bring along someone they trust to help them.

My experience with student models of various instruments is that they are actually more difficult to play than the professional models due to their inferior action, tone, etc.

I do think student models are useful if someone wants to begin exploring the sitar and needs an introduction to it at the least possible cost. But since one is likely to outgrow the student model in a matter of months, purchasing a student sitar may be a bit of a false economy because one will need to purchase a better instrument sooner or later. Rather than being stuck with an outgrown student model of dubious resale value, I think one is better off splurging on a professional instrument that will continue to satisfy and stimulate them as they grow into this music for years to come.

As Dhruvsodha stated:
Quote:
I am going to be keeping the sitar for the rest of my life and that is why i am scared to buy the wrong sitar and regret it later.
Dhruvsodha, good luck on your search!

--Jason
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sitardoc 150 posts
sitardoc
as far as i'm concerned, it all comes down to one simple precept-an instrument-ANY instrument- should be of such quality for the student to play WELL on. anything else is a waste of time, money and general sanity. in a perfect world, the whole idea of "student" instruments would be best abolished.
-the doc
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dhruvsodha Senior Member 112 posts
dhruvsodha
Jason, i agree with what you are saying. It might be easier to buy a student model and find out weather the sitar is the right thing for you, BUT i might have forgotten to mention: i live in south africa and there is not ONE good and reputable musical instrument dealer in South africa. I will not be going to India every year to buy a new sitar and might not afford to ship one down here. I think that the differences between a student and a professional model are quite great. I think it is definetely better to just start off with a professional model as one is definetely going to buy a professional model after getting used to the student sitar....

At the moment i am BEYOND CONFUSED!!! all shops and dealers mentioned in this forum are getting mixed reactions!! i think this calls for a new topic.....THE BEST SITAR DEALER IN INDIA (BEST VALUE FOR MONEY AND BEST QUALITY)

Also, it is so terribly difficult to get in touch with any of their dealers. Sanjay Sharma is the only one that replied to my emails, but stopped thereafter as I am not any Ustad. When i tried calling some of the dealers, i was transferred to an inexperienced assistant who does not know weather a sitar has strings even after speaking to him in Hindi?!?!?!?!?! GOD!!!! IF IT WAS SUCH A PAIN TO JUST GET HOLD OF A SITAR I WOULD HAVE JUST STUCK WITH THE FLUTE!!

OK.. so i have finally decided that i am going with a Professional Ravi Shankar style tun sitar! Shew...that took a year to decide!! :roll: I need something affordable and something of great quality. Any suggestions for dealers in Bombay as i doubt that i will be able to go to Delhi or Calcutta to hand-pick the sitar myself. Should i count on a dealer to ship the instrument to me in Bombay or just buy one in bombay itself. I need you people's help in this matter, as past experiences with a dealer are important to me. Sitarfixer, when you said, "Ain't no way you should pay more than Rs. 30,000 for a full carved teak sitar. NO WAY ! ! ! Tun full carved should run around Rs. 20,000 - 22,000", are these prices for a double tumba sitar? Are these professional and good quality sitars?

THANKS ALOOOOOOOOT!!!
DHRUV
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sitarman 599 posts
sitarman
Dhruvsodha,
I am not in your position of being isolated in a place with no musical dealers to get advice from, but I live in Tucson, Arizona, in the USA- not exactly a center for Indian instruments. When I started playing sitar in 1993 it was really difficult to get any info on quality insrtuments, even though the internet. I bought a no-name sitar that got me to the basic stage of proficiency and at least I then knew that I was serious about the inmstrument. After that I searched and found the Ali Akbar folks in San Rafael and orderd, through them, a left handed Hiren Roy (built by his son, Hemanshu). I could not believe how much easier it was to play and feel like it was responding to my progressing technique. So, I totally understand your desire to get a good instrument. Maybe I was lucky, and lucky again in obtaining a second lefty years later from Mangla Prasad Sharma, when they were not as commercialized as now, I suppose.
Here's an idea. I would imagine that, for the amount of money you plan to spend on both travel, and instrument buying, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you contact someone, maybe through one of the reputable dealers on this site, who lives in the city you are traveling to, and who is a long time player. Pay them for their time in meeting you at the shops. That, in my opinion, would be well worth the extra money. It would more than likely pay for itself. There are several dealers here who work with people there when they import. I would imagine their contacts could bridge the gap between the novice and the sitar maker so you know you are getting a really good playing and good sounding sitar.
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
As ever, when Rover sends up a post - it is diplomatic and respectful to all concerned and makes it easy enough to cordially agree to disagree. RA Sitarmaker and Monoj Kumar Sardar are decidedly not "Training Wheel" sitars. I've seen plenty of proffesionals playing them to good result. We sell lots of sitars made by Ibrahim and Bashir and yet I've seen people badmouth them out-of-hand as typical Miraj firewood, yet Shahid Parvez has been playing sitars built by them for years and continues to do so. I've spoken with many professional players and all agree that most westerners are victims of their own susceptibility to brand-name hype. And Rikhi Ram has become the biggest purveyor of this trend. Watch what happens to Bashir and Ibrahim sitar prices in the next few years as more and more people become aware of the fact that Ustad Ji plays their sitars.
....... And I can't say that I agree with your logic when saying that folks should go ahead and buy the tourist-quality RR stuff at inflated prices so as to potentially motivate Ajay and Sanjay to spend more time building "good" sitars. Why should they? Selling overpriced stuff to tourists is so easy and so profitable - so much so that they are losing the will to produce instruments of quality. It's too much like shooting fish in a barrel. The more people buy their overpriced stuff - the more true rings the old saying, "Nothing succeeds like success." Expecting more tourist sales for RR to generate more serious sitars for "the playas" is like continually voting Bush back into office in hopes of motivating him to end the war in Iraq. RR is the epitome of the standard Indian business model. Start out great - make a name and milk it forever. Only a very few instrument makers in India consistently turn out good stuff in small numbers. It's a work ethic that has almost completely disappeared in India.
..........Your statement that every once in while the great artisans make a dud - is not what I'd call a compelling justification for a shop as renowned as RR to charge a top dollar for poor work. This was not an off-the-shelf instrument we're talking about. With a Rs 55,000 price-tag the logic of this statement is even less compelling. And as to the idea of bringing the instrument back for some kind of satisfaction . . . well, I'm thinking - if they deserved their reputation (or really even valued it) they wouldn't have let it out of the shop in the first place. My personal experience (just one of them) was the last time I did business with them, or to be more specific, Sanjay (who has allegedly been fueling a renaissance of Rikhi Ram quality) was that he made a VM Bhatt guitar for my shop, which arrived with a snapped-off neck. When I took it to my luthier, all he could do was laugh in disbelief. Sanjay's maker forgot to put in a truss-rod! Moreover, there was hardly a spot of glue at the heel. This was simply a case of sloppy, apathetic workmanship - this was the work of someone who just didn't bother to try. And when I emailed him to ask that he cover some part of the expense of re-doing the neck, he responded with a lot of fantasy bukwas about the shipper having opened the case (which in fact arrived still locked with a combination lock) and damaging the neck in the process of stealing his design. What horse-crap. Yeah right. And the dog ate my homework. When I spoke with him again I asked if he thought the guy who packed the guitar also stole the truss-rod. No reply. In my book that makes him a crook as well.
......... So any criticism I have of Rikhi Ram - is not merely strong opinion. It's not just blowing off steam. It's what I've come to know from my actual experiences with doing business with the Sharma Twins. High profit margins are one thing, but at some point you have to draw the line between high mark-up and unrestrained avarice.
Cheers,
Keshav
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Sitarfixer Senior Member 1,937 posts
Sitarfixer
Druvsodha ! The prices I quote for sitars in India are the prices I offered to people who knocked on my door while there. These sitars all had my name on them. Double gourd (real gourd) oh yeah! Please go to my website " karaseksound . com " to understand what I mean by all this. I have one RS full carved sitar coming to me via tugboat that should arrive by Mid May. If you like, I can send you pics of it and you can add that to your shopping equation. I have to say that your getting ripped off in India is pretty much assured. Grim reality. I've been a daily victim of it for the near four years I lived there. You would probably be in best position to get something from the guys on the "Western Front" on your monitor. Their inventory has at least been screened for defects. My stuff has been personally screened from the wood and gourd selection to the final fit. Maybe that's why I was becoming so disliked toward the end. Anyway, I wish you all the best luck shopping for your sitar. If I can offer any help in this quest, PM me. I'll be most happy to chat with you. Cheers!
http://www.karaseksound.com/
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Sitarfixer Senior Member 1,937 posts
Sitarfixer
Just an aside here. Those student sitars I had a year or so back were indeed priced at Rs. 18,000. What I failed to mention was that they each came with a fiberglass case thus bringing the total to that price. A stupid design of mine - "student grade" instrument with high end materials, finish and fit. What was I thinking ? ? ? That won't happen again ! So, back to the battle! Getting a jawari from a bridge that was supposed to already have been done. Right now it has the resonance of a sitar played by Pandit Jaque Cousteau ! ! ! File that !
http://www.karaseksound.com/
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