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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "tablafreak"
Here is a quote of the observations of John Burnell ca 1712:
Quote:
...a resident of calcutta paid us a visit in the aforesaid willock and brought with him his musick consisting of a Georgian violin, two small kettle drums and the like number of hautboys with which he entertained us….To the violin the drums were added in concert assisted with the voice of the musicians whose ill tun'd notes and imperfect cadence made most lamentable discord..
Georgian violin??? Yeah right, John Burnell, you dimbat!!

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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tablafreak

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Reply with quote  #77 
I know I know....but in his defense, it was 1712 and indian music was soooo odd to Eureopean ears.

I can remember the first time I heard Bismillah Khan' shenai. It was the most annoying sound I could think of... I couldnt make heads or tails of it. And I was raised listening to Hinidi/Urdu film songs.......Now Bismillah Khan is one of my all time favorites.


Just think of what the europeans felt!!!!!

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #78 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "tablafreak"
I know I know....but in his defense, it was 1712 and indian music was soooo odd to Eureopean ears.

I can remember the first time I heard Bismillah Khan' shenai. It was the most annoying sound I could think of... I couldnt make heads or tails of it. And I was raised listening to Hinidi/Urdu film songs.......Now Bismillah Khan is one of my all time favorites.


Just think of what the europeans felt!!!!!
Still no excuses for anyone! :wink:

Well here is a more objective look at Indian civilisation in general as depicted by an eleventh century 'european' scholar of Islamic Spain. its not all laudatory but disparaging it aint either. Posted on The Infinity Foundation site:

What Eleventh-Century Spain Knew About Indian Science and Math
By Alok Kumar, PhD

In the eleventh-century, an important manuscript titled "The Categories of Nations" was authored in Arabic by Said al-Andalusi, who was a prolific author and in the powerful position of a judge for the king in Muslim Spain. A translation and annotation of this was done S.I. Salem and Alok Kumar and published by University of Texas Press: "Science in the Medieval World". This is the first English translation of this eleventh-century manuscript. Below is one complete chapter from this that pertains to the scientific strength of India.

Chapter V: Science in India (Translation)

The first nation (to have cultivated science) is India. This is a powerful nation having a large population, and a rich kingdom (possession). India is known for the wisdom of its people. Over many centuries, all the kings of the past have recognized the ability of the Indians in all the branches of knowledge.

The kings of China have stated that the kings of the world are five in number and all the people of the world are their subjects. They mentioned the king of China, the king of India, the king of the Turks, the king of the Furs (Persians) and the king of the Romans (1). They referred to the king of China as the "king of humans" because the people of China are more obedient to authority and are stronger followers of government policies than all the other peoples of the world. They referred to the king of India as the "king of wisdom" because of the Indians careful treatment of `ul?m (sciences) and their advancement in all the branches of knowledge. They referred to the king of the Turks as the "king of lions" because of the courage and the ferocity of the Turks. They referred to the king of Persia as the "king of kings" because of the richness, glory and importance of his kingdom, since Persia had subdued the kings of the center of the populated world, and because it controlled, to the exclusion of other kingdoms, the most fertile of the climatic regions. And they referred to the king of the Romans as the "king of men" because the Romans, of all the peoples, have the most beautiful faces, the best built bodies and the most robust physique.

The Indians, as known to all nations for many centuries, are the metal (essence) of wisdom, the source of fairness and objectivity. They are peoples of sublime pensiveness, universal apologues, and useful and rare inventions. In spite of the fact that their color is in the first stage of blackness, which puts them in the same category as the blacks, Allah, in His glory, did not give them the low characters, the poor manners, nor the inferior principles associated with this group and ranked them above a large number of white and brown peoples.

To their credit, the Indians have made great strides in the study of numbers (3) and of geometry. They have acquired immense information and reached the zenith in their knowledge of the movements of the stars (astronomy) and the secrets of the skies (astrology) as well as other mathematical studies. After all that, they have surpassed all the other peoples in their knowledge of medical science and the strengths of various drugs, the characteristics of compounds and the peculiarities of substances.

Their kings are known for their good moral principles, their wise decisions, and their perfect methods of exercising authority. As to theology, they are in agreement as to the unity of God, may His power and glory be proclaimed, and they exalt Him above any polytheism, but they are in disagreement about His various manifestations (4). Some of them are Brahman and others are Sabians (5). The Brahman are few in number and are descendants of noble ancestry. Some of them believe in the creation of the world while others believe in its eternity. But they are in agreement as to the banning of prophecies, prohibiting the slaughter of animals and refraining from maltreating them or eating their food (6). But the sabians, and they are the overwhelming majority of the Indians, believe in the eternity of the world because it is created by the creator of creators, God Himself, may His power and glory be proclaimed. They revere the stars and represent them in paintings and approach them with offerings, each in accordance with what they have learned about its nature. Thus, they obtain the power of each star and use it in the lower world in accordance with their wishes. They believe in the times of return, in the revolutions of planets and their orbits, in the destruction of all the derivatives of the four elements every time the seven planets meet in the head of the lamb (Aries), and in the recreation of compounds during every cycle (7). On this matter, they have numerous views and a variety of doctrines as we have indicated in our book "Articles about the Doctrines and Religions of Peoples."

As Indians are far from our country and many kingdoms separate us from them, we have very few of their books. Only a small fraction of their knowledge and a few fragments about their religions have reached us, and we have heard about only a small number of their scholars (8).

Of the Indian's astronomical systems, the three that are well known are the Sindhind and it means the cyclic time and the Arjbahd (Arjabhar) and the Arkand (Khandakhadyaka of Brahmagupta) (9). We have received correct information only about the Sindhind system, which was adopted and further developed by a group of Muslim scientists. Among them were Muh.ammad bin Ibrahim al-Faz?ri (fl.c.760-790 A. D.) (10), H.abesh bin `Abd Allah al-Baghd?di, Muh.ammad ibn M?s? al-Khuwarizmi (c.800-c.847 A.D.), al-H.usayn ibn Muh.ammad also known as ibn al-?dami? (fl. c. 920 A.D.) and others (11). The meaning of Sindhind is ad-dahr ad-d?hir (the infinite time or the cyclic time) (12). This is the way it was reported by ibn al-?dami? in his tables of astronomy. Those, who believe in the Sindhind, say that all the seven planets and their apogees and perigees meet in the head of Aries once every four thousand thousand thousand years and three hundred thousand thousand year and twenty thousand thousand solar years (13). They call this cycle "the period of the universe" because they believe that when all the planets meet in the head of Aries everything found on earth will perish leaving the lower universe in a state of destruction for a very long time until the planets and their apogees and perigees disperse back to their zodiacs (constellations). When this takes place the world returns to its original state. The cycle repeats itself indefinitely. The Sindhind advocates gave no explanation for this behavior but they claim that for each planet and its apogee and perigee there is an orbit, which it completes in a given time which they call the period of the universe. I have already mentioned that in my book, "Written for the Rectification of the Movements of the Stars."

Those who believe in the Arjbahd agree with the followers of the Sindhind except for the length of the period of the cycle of the universe. They believe that the planets and their apogees and perigees meet in the head of Aries in one thousandth of the period claimed by the Sindhind, and this is the essence of their doctrine.

The followers of the Arkand differ from the two previous schools in their description of the movements of the planets and also in the length of the period of the cycle of the universe. I have not been informed of the exact nature of this difference (14).

What has reached us from the work of the Indians in music is the book known in the Indian language as Bafir (Nafir) which means Thimar al-H.ikmah (the fruits of wisdom). It contains the fundamentals of modes and the basics in the construction of melodies.

What has reached us from their works on the improvement of morals and the amelioration of upbringing is the book "Kalilat wa Dimna", which was brought by the Persian H.akim (physician or wise) Burzuwaih from India to Anusharwan (fl. 550 A.D.) ibn Qib?d ibn Fayruz, king of Persia. Burzuwaih translated Kalilat wa Dimna for the king from the Indian Language to the Farsi. It was later translated from Farsi into Arabic during the Islamic period by `Abd Allah ibn al-Muqaffa`(15). This is a book of noble purpose and great practical worth.

That which has reached us from their work on numbers is "H.is?b al-Ghubar" (Dust-board Arithmetic) (16) which was simplified by Ab? Ja`far Muh.ammad ibn M?s? al-Khuwarizmi. This method of calculating is the simplest, fastest, and easiest method to understand and use, and has a remarkable structure. It is a testimony to the intelligence of the Indians, the clarity of their creativity, and the power of their inventiveness.

That which has reached us from the discoveries of their clear thinking and the marvels of their inventions is the (game) of chess. The Indians have, in the construction of its cells, its double numbers, its symbols and secrets, reached the forefront of knowledge. They have extracted its mysteries from supernatural forces. While the game is being played and its pieces are being maneuvered, there appear the beauty of structure and the greatness of harmony. It demonstrates the manifestation of high intentions and noble deeds, as it provides various forms of warnings from enemies and points out ruses as well as ways to avoid dangers. And in this, there is considerable gain and useful profit.

Of the Indian scientists, who are knowledgeable in the shape of the physical universe and in the composition of the celestial spheres and the movement of stars, we have heard of Kanka al-Hindi (the Indian) (17). Ab? Ma`sher Ja`far bin Muh.ammad bin 'Umar al-Balkhi (787-886 A.D.) had mentioned in his book "al-Ul?f" (the Thousands) (18) that this scientist is considered a leader in his knowledge of astronomy by all the Indian scientists of the past. I have received no information as to when or where he lived or anything about his work or his life except what I have just mentioned.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #79 
“They possess such admirable lungs that they are able to continue without diminution through a long night; their screeching notes break in upon all conversation, and come upon the sense with so little harmony, that it is difficult to avoid rushing into the street with both hands to your ears – an action which I detected myself performing much more frequently than my politeness justified.”

T. Skinner, “Excursions into India”, London, 1832


- Many historians and anthropologists, to this day, do not dare mention or even explore the profound influence African and the Near Eastern cultures had on the mathematics, philosophy, and architecture of that 'Fountain of Western Civilization', Classical Greece. The reason: academic racism. Read “Black Athena” by Martin Bernal.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Athena-Afroasiatic-Civilization-Fabrication/dp/0813512778/sr=1-1/qid=1159588938/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-5145779-8638448?ie=UTF8&s=books

Aanaddha

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #80 


This is the very same kind of backhanded compliment that's so bewildering to us now. Obviously a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, thank god.
Although there are some on the 'other side' who would like to keep it all 'secret'.


Nick
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Bollywood Dev

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Reply with quote  #81 
The European types that wrote of other cultures in the 1700s were really more adventurers than anthropologists. The were undoubtedly culturally biased and arrogant. No university was teaching the rules of the trade, as it were, so all the reporting on exotic culture was done by explorers, whose real strengths were map-making and language. Men like, say Richard Burton, were very rare in that era. Most traveler/explorer types were not terribly educated in terms of arts. Their focus was generally to A - access places here-to-for unknown, like Lhasa and B - to make business connections for King or Queen, C - get a medal from the Royal Geographers Society. Check out books by Richard Burton, and also, William Dalrymple's "White Mughals" for early example of enlightened (relatively) European writing on Indian or Sindhi culture. If you read the travels of Marco Polo, you get the opposite end of the spectrum, his stuff reads like an accountant's ledger; utterly boring.
Dev
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damien

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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Greg"
Hi

Given that the problem with a synthetic tabla head seems to be the syahi are there no budding material scientists out there that can come up with some suggestions....?

Man on the moon and sat nav...no problem,

small ink spot on drum...no can do

G
HAHAHA exactly my thinking. I too am vegan and am frustrated that synthetic tabla heads dont exist. I bought a second hand tabla set and I'm thinking about pulling the heads off them and trying to craft synthetic heads from existing drum heads.

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ahiṁsāpratiṣṭhāyāṁ tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ
When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one's aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one's presence.
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-Obscurity-

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Reply with quote  #83 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "damien"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Greg"
Hi

Given that the problem with a synthetic tabla head seems to be the syahi are there no budding material scientists out there that can come up with some suggestions....?

Man on the moon and sat nav...no problem,

small ink spot on drum...no can do

G
HAHAHA exactly my thinking. I too am vegan and am frustrated that synthetic tabla heads dont exist. I bought a second hand tabla set and I'm thinking about pulling the heads off them and trying to craft synthetic heads from existing drum heads.
You already paid for the set and now you want to demolish it?
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damien

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Reply with quote  #84 
Yes I do. I managed to convince myself at the time that it was ok for me to buy them but I have since re-thought that decision. I think it needs reheading anyhow and I am certainly not going to make the same mistake.

I am guessing then that no-one has come across non-animal tabla skins.

There would be many other benefits to synthetic heads being in Australia. Re: our tough importation restrictions and the senstivity of skins during travel.

Well even if they dont sound like tabla's I will have an interested sounding set of hand drums :-)

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ahiṁsāpratiṣṭhāyāṁ tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ
When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one's aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one's presence.
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-Obscurity-

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Reply with quote  #85 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "damien"
Yes I do. I managed to convince myself at the time that it was ok for me to buy them but I have since re-thought that decision. I think it needs reheading anyhow and I am certainly not going to make the same mistake.

I am guessing then that no-one has come across non-animal tabla skins.

There would be many other benefits to synthetic heads being in Australia. Re: our tough importation restrictions and the senstivity of skins during travel.

Well even if they dont sound like tabla's I will have an interested sounding set of hand drums :-)
Well even if you think animal skin heads are wrong, you have already paid the money for them, so it's not like changing the heads will redeem your decision. Since you already have them you may as well just enjoy them, because you will NOT be able to replicate a tabla skin in any other way. Just know that the animals were not killed just for the purpose of the skins alone. Do you drive a car? That car was built in a factory that killed hundreds of animals during it's construction. The oil and gasoline that goes into it comes from an industry that kills millions more each year. Same for the electric companies. There's nothing you can do about it though unless you want to abandon society and live alone in the woods somewhere.
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scodoha

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Reply with quote  #86 
I would wager that if a synthetic tabla head is ever developed it will not be by a vegan.
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RichardH

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Reply with quote  #87 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "scodoha"
I would wager that if a synthetic tabla head is ever developed it will not be by a vegan.
http://forums.chandrakantha.com/viewtopic.php?p=11110&highlight=#11110

I don't think the Swiss guy mentioned is vegetarian.
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damien

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Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "-Obscurity-"

Well even if you think animal skin heads are wrong, you have already paid the money for them, so it's not like changing the heads will redeem your decision.


Well the fact is that I don't enjoy them as they remind me of the unnecessary suffering that a poor animal had to endure for me to be able to enjoy the sound of me beating its skin. I am not seeking redemption for a bad decision either, I just want to act in accord with my beliefs.

As I stated above they need reheading and I certainly dont want to make the same mistake again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "-Obscurity-"
...because you will NOT be able to replicate a tabla skin in any other way.
if we are able to synthesize the taste of food I think it very possible to do the same for tabla skins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "-Obscurity-"
Just know that the animals were not killed just for the purpose of the skins alone.
Exactly true and those industries I dont agree with either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "-Obscurity-"
Do you drive a car? That car was built in a factory that killed hundreds of animals during it's construction. The oil and gasoline that goes into it comes from an industry that kills millions more each year. Same for the electric companies. There's nothing you can do about it though unless you want to abandon society and live alone in the woods somewhere.

No I dont drive a car, and I am aware that I contribute to animal suffering even though I am a vegan the difference is that I seek to minimize it. Black or White huh? On the contrary there is much I can do to minimise the harm I cause.

Thanks for your not so helpful advice.

__________________
ahiṁsāpratiṣṭhāyāṁ tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ
When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one's aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one's presence.
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damien

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Reply with quote  #89 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "scodoha"
I would wager that if a synthetic tabla head is ever developed it will not be by a vegan.
And what is that sound logic based on? Thanks for your help

__________________
ahiṁsāpratiṣṭhāyāṁ tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ
When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one's aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one's presence.
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damien

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Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #90 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "RichardH"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "scodoha"
I would wager that if a synthetic tabla head is ever developed it will not be by a vegan.
http://forums.chandrakantha.com/viewtopic.php?p=11110&highlight=#11110

I don't think the Swiss guy mentioned is vegetarian.
Thanks RichardH. I dont care what the person's life philosophy is as long as the methods and materials don't have an animal origin. Cheers will look into it.

__________________
ahiṁsāpratiṣṭhāyāṁ tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ
When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one's aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one's presence.
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