INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

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BWV

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Reply with quote  #16 
What about women? I have not seen either Shubda Mudgal or Begum Parveen Sultana referred to with either title
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #17 
Good question - I will ask my family to make sure but I believe it is Begum and Kumari - Muslim name, Hindu Name

I believe I will make sure though - i know Begum is correct
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #18 
I asked this question of my Guru. First he told me of the obvious muslim/hindu relations. Pandit being Hindu and Ustad being Muslim as stated earlier. He then went to explain that there are two ways to be given these titles. One way is to be given the title by the Indian government/All India Radio/government music and arts organizations. He told me that getting your title as Pandit or Ustad through this avenue will not earn you the respect of your fellow musicians necessarily. He said that to be an Ustad or Pandit, you must know 500 ragas(give or take a fewI'm guessing). he told me that when a musical family has a wedding, many Ustads/Pandits and musical friends of the family will all gather for several days of music. The Gurus/Ustads/Pandits all sit up front and the up and coming students will ask for permission to play for them. They will ask the students how many ragas they know and tell them to start naming them. After you name a good 300 ragas, the Guru will say, "Wait, play that one!". You had better be able to play it and play it well. If you pass the approval of the group of gurus that have gathered, they will award you the title of Ustad or Pandit. Earning your title this way is the way to earn the respect of your peers and fellow musicians. This is what I am told and it makes sense to me. My Guru was adopted into the Indore Gharana and accepted as a part of their family. We spoke about this just a few weeks ago.
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Mulamoodan

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "theprosperone"
He said that to be an Ustad or Pandit, you must know 500 ragas(give or take a fewI'm guessing)
I am only 495 ragas away from being the next pundit..
8)
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #20 
I am sorry but this is not true. I know people who know 500 ragas and cannot play well (vice-versa as well), but even Ravi Shankar and Nikhil Bannerjee point out the fact that normally even a great professional classical musician has a repotoire of about 150 Ragas - 20-30 of which are generally played. This simply ridiculous - all due respect. It just does not work that way. There is NO magic 500 number at which one is a Pandit or Ustad. That is not true at all, and at worst mis-guiding
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #21 
Well the number I would doubt is fixed but it is no doubt you're probably expected to know many many ragas and be able to play them all well. Good chance my guru picked an arbitrary number to say, I'm not clear as we only lightly touched on the subject but obviously just knowing many ragas isn't enough to earn the titles. Hence having to play for all the elders at the gathering and having them approve of your playing and musical knowledge is what earns you the title. Still, I'd believe my Guru before anyone else I know as he is the only man I've been in contact with that actually knows and has had contact with many of the famous Ustads and Pandits of whose cds and tapes I own. If the subject comes up again, I'll ask to clear up the specifics but I said in the original post that I doubt that number is fixed. Maybe someone will chime in with some concrete information that knows for sure. I do know its not as ambiguous as you make it seem, there is some reasoning and a process behind it.
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #22 
gotten).
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Tomek

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Reply with quote  #23 
With all due respect, it does sound to me like one of those stories an Indian music teacher would say, that I would take with a grain of sand. Personally.
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #24 
HE EARNED IT.
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #25 
I'm not saying I think there is some mathmatic way of determining who deserves or earns the title. All I am saying is that there is surely some rhyme or reason behind the title being given to people. Maybe I misunderstood or took my Guru too literally but I still doubt that you only become an Ustad or Pandit when someone just decides to start calling you that at some random junction. Maybe I have it all wrong though, I'm too knew to ICM to start making declarations. All I know is what my guru Patric Marks of Chicago teaches me. He is part of the Indore Gharana and his guru was Ustad Ghulam Hussain Khan. He is not the type of man to pass on false information for no reason so I must just not be clear or misunderstood what he was saying. I do know that these are the two general things he told me: You can be called an Ustad or Pandit by All India Radio/organizations/panels that give out musical awards in India but this does not earn you the respect from your peers. You can also earn the title by playing for gurus at musical gatherings/celebrations/weddings or wherever and this is the situation in which the title earns you the respect of your peers and actually carries some meaning. Usually when you EARN something, you EARN it from someone. I wouldn't think anyone was knowledgeable enough about ICM to declare others Pandits or Ustads unless they are an Ustad or Pandit themselves.

Also I know who you are because we've already had some unfortunate negative contact over at youtube already. I'm starting to think I should just shy away from the internet for sitar and indian classical music resources because its mostly full of misinformation and bickering between people that don't even know each other, usually over questions that neither have the complete answers to. *sigh* Sorry I even took part in this conversation. I was just trying to share what I've heard and I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between all of this. You have a very condescending tone and really it doesn't help facilitate an environment conducive to the exchange of information so I'll just leave it at that.
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #26 
ASKED
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Agape

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Reply with quote  #27 
There is only peer and audience review. No RULES
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #28 
I never attacked you first off. You try and act like you're a Master and a Guru yourself and it is simply not so. I've dedicated much of my life towards music as well and while I am new to ICM, I am very well versed at the guitar. You do not need to act like people new to ICM and Sitar must lack all familiarity with music. Its very well possible I've dedicated just as much of my life, time and soul to my music and guitar as you have to music, why make that judgement?

You're poor recollection of the Youtube fiasco is also silly. Someone made a negative comment towards a lady playing sitar. His comment called her a "wrinkled up housewife" and it was rather mean spirited and silly. I went to his page and commented that maybe he should keep his opinions to his self because his videos were hardly anything to be impressed by and it wouldn't help him any for people to come in and tell him how poor they are would it? Then you came and tried to leave negative comments on my single video, which I deleted. Then you proceeded to send messages to me and keep it going. Comments are even still on the one video:


Anyway, I believe my Guru knows more about ICM and Sitar playing than you do and I make that judgement based on what I've seen of your videos and abilities and what I've seen of his. I'll clarify my interest in this matter when I see him next and I will refrain from taking part in any discussions on this board where my knowledge isn't concrete. While your sitar playing is impressive, I do not "know" that all your material and knowledge are top quality. Some of your videos I enjoy, some I do not. You need to work a little on your people skills because its obvious you have a problem with getting along, as I've seen several arguements across youtube and here between you and others simply over your ego towards your own knowledge. A discussion is a two way street but it seems like you're more interested in giving lectures. I am not interested in hearing them. C'est La Vie. I'm sorry this arguement has occurred and I'm sorry if I offend you or anyone else. I just find it sad that on the internet, ICM seems to be filled with just as much sillyness as everything else. Regardless of if you see it or not, your attitude over the internet really reflects poorly on you and could really turn people off to sitar, icm or anything else you feel like lecturing them about.

By the way, To keep my post at least on topic for one paragraph I'll at least explain what I meant by "somewhere in between". We both argee the title is given basically by peer approval. When someone plays, you can hear that they are an Ustad or Pandit. I can FEEL it. I understand and agree with you. I just think that my Guru meant that traditionally, these titles were given to people by their families, gurus and peers at family gatherings. Understand I'm not talking about it may work today. I believe my Guru was talking about how it worked years ago, before there was such an influx of people learning who were not actual members of the families. I'm guessing he meant way before he ever came to the states, maybe before he was even born. So in the early 1900s and before? It would seem plausible that with the traditions of music seemingly more strict in the past that it would also be more strict in terms of who was allowed to be referred to as an Ustad or Pandit. Just my opinion but what do I know.
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