INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
trippy monkey

Registered:
Posts: 4,281
Reply with quote  #1 
I've just been reading the book on North Indian Classical Music by a Mr Ruckert (?) & A A Khan as editor. Very nice read from 'the Inside' so to speak. Priceless compositions from 'yesteryear'.

It mentions that it was Baba Allauddin Khan who instigated the use of Kharaj (bass) strings on the sitar.

I was under the impression it was Raviji himself who did this so he wouldn't have to cart around his surbahar as well as his sitar on his early concert tours/travels. He certainly says so in his Raga Mala autobiography.

Is there a right answer or is it a combo of the two??? :?

Kharaj hooks I think we can certainly claim for Raviji.

BTW Is there any documentation as to what Baba Allauddin actually created, instrument wise. Pics etc????

Nick
0
AbdulLatif

Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #2 
Yo Nick sahib, I'll look around for the info. I do believe though that it was Baba Allaluddins brother who made most of the innovations on sarod and sitar. I'll find his name. I've also read conflicting accounts regarding the Kharaj string. It is certain however that it evolved in the beenkar senia schools as a way around the prohibitions on teaching veen. I would guess that it was KL working for RaviJi who refined and improved the modern Kharaj sitar.
__________________
"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
0
sitarman

Registered:
Posts: 599
Reply with quote  #3 
Abdoool Bro (kind of like "ji" or "saheb",
Interesting stuff! You know, there ARE conflicting claims there. I think, given the widespread use and growth of sitar in the 20th century, and the family "bragging rights", it may well have been more or less simultaneous but each one involved claims exclusivity. The fast evolution of the sitar in the mid 1900's, overtaking surbahar as a concert instrument would naturally lead to surbahar-like influences mixing in. the hooks are probably another story. I am surprised that another system, at times emplyed by NB, where the gayaki style tuning- use of the extra ga chikari, is combined with the kharaj pancham strings. You can also just remove the kharaj, leave the laraj, and substitute the high ga to have some low string chops as well as the nice gayaki chikari.
0
AbdulLatif

Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #4 
yo SitarmanBhaiJiBroSahibJi, (yo, kind of like salaam ya feel me?)
Heres some good poop on the Baba (pbuh). My Ustads guru, and part of the reason I'm such a crotchity traditionalist. To quote Ravi Shankar from "My Music my Life".
"As a teacher, Baba aims at perfecting the hand and finger technique of the student. No matter what in- strument the student may choose, Baba insists that the student who shows promise should also learn to sing the palta, sargams, and other song compositions, carefully delineating the scope of the raga and its distinctive notes and phrases and correctly using the microtones, or shrutis, to give the proper effect to the music and make it come alive. The reason for this is, of course, that the basis of our music is vocal, and it is composed primarily of melody, of embellishment, and of rhythm; any melodic phrase, with or without a definite rhythm, that can be sung can also be played on an instrument, with each instrument's own fea- tures bringing a special quality to the sound. Ac- cording to our tradition, even the instrumentalists are required to have a moderate command of the voice. This makes it easier for them when they take on the role of teacher to instruct their students, merely by singing the gats, or tans, or todas, or even the alap, jor, and jhala. Along with the ability to sing the melodies, Baba recommends that his students learn to play the tabla and acquire a good knowledge of taladhaya (rhythmics). In mastering the funda- mentals, the student learns all the technique of prop- erly handling the instrument of his choice, working in the particular idiom, tonal range, and musical scope of a given instrument by practicing scales, palta, sargams, and bols taught by the guru. Gener- ally, Baba starts with basic ragas like Kalyan for the evening and Bhairav for the morning, first giving, many pieces of "fixed music" in the form of gats, tans, or todas based on the raga. By "fixed music" I do not mean music that is written down as it is in the West; rather I am referring to what we call bandishes, which literally means "bound down," but in this con- text means "fixed." These are vocal or instrumental pieces, either traditional compositions or the teacher's own, that students learn and memorize by playing over hundreds, even thousands, of times, to be able to produce the correct, clear sound, intonation, and phrasing. Thus, Baba lays a solid foundation for the student to know the sanctified framework of the ragas and talas." I digress but this is the way I was taught also, not by quarterly "workshops".

This link has enough cross references to probably answer the question and fuel the conflict all at once.
http://www.answers.com/topic/allauddin-khan#after_ad1
Babas brothers name was Aftabuddin Khan, and he is said to be the innovator and responsable for many of the changes to sitar and sarod that are claimed by the Maihar side. Something I learned by searching this was the probability that Baba was influenced by Sant Vivekananda, discple of Ramakrishna. Baba was known for his lack of prejudice and caste discrimination throughout his life, a trait associated with Vivekanada et al. His great generousity in bringing orphans to Maihar for musical training allowed my Ustad to recieve his sitar mastery, although he suffered from discrimination by higher caste graduates of Babas tutelage. (Dirty Hari, you know what you did!!!) Vishnu Digambar (wonderful singer,dhrupadi) also founded a gharana along these principals, which sadly did not outlive his passing by many years. I'm gonna dig deeper and find the source of the "We were first" nonsense and will report back.

__________________
"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
0
jaan e kharabat

Registered:
Posts: 1,401
Reply with quote  #5 
Hi all

I read some where that Allaudin's brother was one surbahar wielding Ayat Ali . For fear of sounding pedantic and critical, this name makes more sense than Aftab-uddin.
Aftab is Persian and Din is Arabic, the two don't mix in this context. In Arabic it would simply be Shams-uddin.

But then again stranger things are known to occur in the sub-continent, like people claiming to have invented all sorts of things, Ravi being a famous culprit in the musical context. Could be that it all goes with the turf, i.e with a highly oral tradition.

__________________
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
0
AbdulLatif

Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #6 
Asalaam Jaan, I used Ravi shankars "My music My Life" and the bio from Ali Akbar Khan College, both name Babas brother as Aftabuddin,
"As a youth he learned tabla and violin with his brother, Fakir Aftabuddin (a singer and drummer, who was later to popularize the dotara and the flute as classical instruments)." I have also found reference to a brother of Babas named Ayat Khan, Ayat is of course Arabic for "verse" paticularly in the context of the Quran. Possibly the Muslim roots of the family led to the inclusion of Arabic or Farsi words into the family tree as it had into the Bengali or Hindi dialect? I do however defer to your linguistic expertise and feel you have the correct name. Prehaps the Aftabuddin was a "nick name". I'm still researching...

Nick, Heres an excerpt from a Nikhl Bannerjee interview on the subject of Kharaj strings: http://www.raga.com/interviews/207int1.html

Ira Langarten: "Would you say there have been any changes or improvements in sitar construction?"

Nikhl Banerjee(pbuh) "Mainly, I will say that Allauddin Khansahib is the person who actually introduced the kharaj (bass) string on sitar. Nobody used to..."

Ravi Shankar says that this is something that he created with sitar maker Kanai Lal.

No, no, absolutely wrong! It was Allauddin Khansahib who told that you must put one extra thick string so that you can have your bass sa.

So how does the instrument you have now differ from the type you originally played?

The construction and the shape is a little changed, but because we play these kharaj strings, the shape of the tumba, or gourd, is a little bigger and the shape is also a little bigger, otherwise you cannot hold the thick strings; it would bend the neck."

The entire interview is a good read especially as it relates to the traditional Gurukul training.

More to come...maybe
Abdul

__________________
"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
0
shagird

Registered:
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #7 
Jaan-e-Kharabat,

Baba's elder brother was indeed named Aftabuddin. Ayet Ali and Baba Allaudin, were his younger brothers.

You could read about him and see his pic here:

http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/K_0159.htm
0
jaan e kharabat

Registered:
Posts: 1,401
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "shagird"
Jaan-e-Kharabat,

Baba's elder brother was indeed named Aftabuddin. Ayet Ali and Baba Allaudin, were his younger brothers.

You could read about him and see his pic here:

http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/K_0159.htm
Like I said, stranger things are indeed possible in the sub-continent. Aftabuddin is gramatically incorrect, and it would not occur in the other eastern Islamic lands. But it is not unusual in that part of the world (i.e sub-cont) to come across these types of constructions.

Ayat also means 'Sign' apart from 'Verse'. So Ayat Ali = Sign of Ali, a common enough name among the Shia. And yes i have also read that he was the younger brother of Allauddin.

__________________
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
0
AbdulLatif

Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #9 
All right we got the name thing straight "Ayat, ayat bo Byata bananafana fo Fyat Byat." I'm tending to believe the attribution of the Kharaj to Baba or Ayat. Whats the "Other " camp claim on the origin of the kharaj sitar with veena characteristics?? 'Kharaj, Kharaj bo bharaj banana fana fo Fharaj Bharaj".
__________________
"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
0
Sitarfixer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,937
Reply with quote  #10 
Shirley Ellis as a ninjette !!! I'm Loving this !!!
__________________
http://www.karaseksound.com/
0
AbdulLatif

Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #11 
Tony tony bo bonee banana fana fo poona booona, wat up wit my veena banana fana feena, mine mine be bine Beena......
__________________
"Words are said to have a delusive nature (Mahamaya Matrika) because the word itself, although it may contain a reference to an object is often surrounded by clusters or Kulas of lesser Shaktis...."
0
Sitarfixer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,937
Reply with quote  #12 
Veena veena vo veena, vo costa lotta roops veena, big bucks go bye bye - - veena!


"Thank you! Thank you very mhuuch"!

__________________
http://www.karaseksound.com/
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.