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sankrityayan

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Reply with quote  #46 
The amazing thing about the Dagar knowledge -which I believe is the fundamental knowledge about music and sound that is the result of generations of work in India going back to the vedic chants and inherited and borne by the Dagars till the present times- is its complete logical consistency. I am amazed by how carefully thought out and "scientific" it is. There is nothing arcane or esoteric about it at all. Fahimuddin Dagar always insists that he can explain everything he does on the basis of the theory or rather nothing is done in his music that cannot be accounted for by the theory. The explanation for the shifting sa is clear and the method of tuning the tanpura on the basis of this very straightforward. If you ask him why is the sa of miya malhar higher and of megh lower he explains it in terms of the samvad of the former with shudha ni and the latter with komal ni. So are the explanations for everything else. In fact for someone who is trained in the voice technique with niradhar naad the shift of notes according to samvad will be automatic because he will always employ the correct positions and internal adjustments to sing a note of a raga. The method of training is again entirely logical and well thought out and goes together with the theory. This training cannot exist without the theory - which forms the basis.

The Dagars pride themselves in the logicality and soundness and demonstrability of what they say. Unfortunately there are not many of the old generation alive who received the full rigorous training of the family. Fahimuddin Dagar may well be the last. Another problem is their upbringing which makes them secretive about their family "jewels".

One reason why this knowledge is on the verge of being lost is of course that it is irrelevant for the form of singing that came after Dhrupad. Khyal with its emphasis on the execution of fast permutations ( taans) must necessarily abandon this technique and theory and seek a new one - the one created by Bhatkhande and others based on the concept of thaat , chalan etc. The vedic accents of udatta, anudatta and svarita which form the basis of the Dhrupad technique and theory are irrelevant in Khyal. That is why Khyal has an entirely different conception of what is a raga.

I read your comments about the session only briefly and need to read them carefully again to say anything. I will write again about it.
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sankrityayan"
The explanation for the shifting sa is clear and the method of tuning the tanpura on the basis of this very straightforward. If you ask him why is the sa of miya malhar higher and of megh lower he explains it in terms of the samvad of the former with shudha ni and the latter with komal ni.
This is interesting. I am wondering if on the basis of samvad with various swaras in a raga, the Sa shifts during the performance? Say for example that the alaap has reached the Pa in Megh or Miya Malhar, would the Sa sang in these instances fall into the default tampura position (those of the jora strings) in order to convey the appropriate consonance?

Or is there a possiblity that the Ni is viewed as the tonic?

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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sankrityayan"
The amazing thing about the Dagar knowledge ...............is its complete logical consistency. I am amazed by how carefully thought out and "scientific" it is. There is nothing arcane or esoteric about it at all.
Many thanks again Ashish for stating a position on this which shatters the idea there is an unexplained secret or mystical knowledge which none but the initiated can start to understand.

It is that false concept which not only prevents a full appreciation of the music but gives a free ride to detractors.

If Dhrupad is to survive I am sure it needs not only traditional practitioners set in their ways, rightly or wrongly, but people like yourself as interpreters to help those of us who love the music without full understanding, by lack of training, but who do desire clear explanations when there are issues that are puzzling but important to us.
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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "martin
What I describe in my post where I recount the session with Uday, what would you make out of what I tried to describe there? I refer to the minute shifting of thread and bead to seek to the right shades and blending of the sound most proper to a particular raga while keeping the basic pssS or mssS tuning, specifically not shifting the fundamental perceptibly. Is this related to the phenomenon that you describe?
Martin, reading this I wonder if you had seen my post a little earlier quoting the Ashish description of the tanpura tuning? Speaking for myself this tells me in a very concise way all I need to know of the theory of this matter. The clear statement is that JUST the lower sa and the first string tuning, ma/pa/ni/whatever DO shift. This is what affects the reference to raga, not keeping the "basic" tuning and shifting threads and beads.
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panchamkauns

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Reply with quote  #50 
Ashish, thanks for writing! Very interesting that this really is done with [size=75]SA[/size]; I’ll try to listen for it in recordings but I may also be able to catch one of your concerts of workshop come spring. The demonstration you mentioned would be interesting to hear!
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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #51 
A posting in another topic on riaz aleretd me to some extra comments which may be of interest/relevant to this thread



http://www.indiamusicforum.com/seminar/index.htm


This includes contributions in the 1999 sessions -

Ustad Fariduddin Dagar

http://www.indiamusicforum.com/seminar/riyaz/riyaz11.htm


Shri Ramakant Gundecha and discussion

http://www.indiamusicforum.com/seminar/riyaz/riyaz12.htm

The quote from UFD that he studied 35 years before being allowed to pick up a tanpura may scotch any idea that the issue of a shifting sa is based on tanpura tuning. Unless maybe you believe in 35 years he only studied one raga!
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sari

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Reply with quote  #52 
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sangtar

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Reply with quote  #53 
This thread is going on very nicely, but I am amazed that no one has talked about
1. Sadharan Gandhar and Chaut Madhyam
2. Kaushik Nishad and Chaut Shadaj

The secret is in harmonics. I don't know how deep I can go here to conclude this message in a a few paragraphs, however to understand this phenomenon one must understand three types of intervals:
"Udat, Savrat and Anudat"
Udat is 4 sharuti interval, Savrat is 3 shruti interval and Anudat is 2 sharuti interval.
Anudat is also the minimum interval that is allowed to be tuned on an instrument.
One may not tune any note less than this interval.

Now, there are three types of sharutis:
1.         Parman Sharuti,
2.         Upmehti sharuti and
3.         Mehti Sharuti
If you are familiar with savart's system then:
Parman Sharuti is = 5 Savarts
Upmehti is = 18 savarts and
Mehti sharuti is =23 savarats (or the sum of parman and upmehti)

The third thing to know is that:
1. All notes with 2 sharuti intervals are always at 28 Savarats thus ( mehti+parman)
2. All notes with 3 sharuti intervals are always at 46 savarats thus (upmehti+mehti+parman)
3. All 4 sharuti intervals are at always 51 savarats thus (parman+upmehti+mehti+parman)

Please note that it can be proved with two sawar mandals that the sharutis between notes are in exactly that order. Which means all four sharuti intervals have one parman sharuti on both sides.

Now concluding the message, when modern Komal Gandhar rises towards Madhyam, it rises one parman sharuti, which forces the madhyam to come down one parman sharuti. This makes their temporary interval of 41 savarats. Please note that there is no note with this interval. It is a temporary situation. In the scriptures, this situation is known as “Madhyam Sadharan”. This is the first phenomenon. All rags that give rise to this phenomenon belong to Madhaym Gram.

Now when modern komal Nishad rises one parman sharuti towards the Shadaj, then to stay in the harmonics, shadaj temporarliy falls one parman sharuti. This phenomenon is called “Shadaj Sadharn”. This is also a temporary situation. No string will be tuned to this, but regardless of their tuning, their harmonics drop and rise.

The amazing thing off about all this is that this can be found in a 4000 year old book. I am amazed, that without the use of physics instruments, the Rishis had the ability not to just hear these temporary sub harmonics, but also had the ability to explain them with such a grace that it puts tears in your eyes.
Music is deeper than anyone can possibly understand.

If you wish to read more about this type of technical things, please visit my blog.

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martin spaink

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Reply with quote  #54 
Dear Sangtar,

Sadly I'm not familiar with these terms. Whatever I have learned about tanpura tuning is based on hands-on experience and sitting a lot with various musicians. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, sitting together and tuning up for a particular raga, is ultimately done in an intuitive way based on experience. It might be very enriching to be able to use and discern the musical phenomena you mentioned in these terms, most of all, what it acoustically represents. Have you any idea to what extent other living musicians are aware of and familiar with these terms?
regards, martin
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sangtar

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Reply with quote  #55 
Dear Martin

Music is all about ears. You are right that end of the day, it is about what we hear.
However, sometimes it is good to know the logics behind the tricks that ears play on us.
Your article about Tanpura tuning actually goes very deep into the physics of its harmonics.
I appreciate your hardwork and I have placed a linkto it from my basic Tanpura article.

About the terms:
There are 22 sharuties that map an Indian Octave, or any just intonation octave. Indian Rishies and most modern musicologists agree that these sharuties are not equal. So the sharuti names (mehti, up-mehti (sub-mehti) and parman) represent the three types of sharuties. These name have their roots in Natayashaster (3000 BC).
(Bharat calles the difference between two Panchams a Parman (proof) of existance of two grams (Madhyam Gram and Shadaj Gram), and therefore that sharuti is named Parman Sharuti and equals apprx. 5 savarts.)

It is very comprehensible to compare these sharuties to the Savarts system. Please read more about it on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9lix_Savart and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savart
Thanks

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