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chrisnovice

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Reply with quote  #16 
Hopefully not too much of a tangent, but with talk of "folk" sitar and uillean pipes...

I recently tried out a few simple Irish pipe tunes on sitar such as An Ghaoth Aneas, Eibhli Ghail Chiuin Ni Chearbhaill. They sounded quite interesting!
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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "chrisnovice"
Hopefully not too much of a tangent, but with talk of "folk" sitar and uillean pipes...

I recently tried out a few simple Irish pipe tunes on sitar such as An Ghaoth Aneas, Eibhli Ghail Chiuin Ni Chearbhaill. They sounded quite interesting!
People can argue for hours about the distinction between "folk" music and "traditional" music, especially when it come to Irish trad. There is in fact a lot more discipline to playing say the uilleann pipes than there is to singing and playing Aussie shearing songs for example.

Not as demanding as ICM to be sure, but there are some similarities.

Apart from airs and songs, most Irish trad is social music though, especially dance music, so that limits the type of thing one plays. But the timing, melody and especially the ornamentation, can be quite complex, hard to learn and often played extremely fast. So it too takes a teacher and many years to perfect...and then as a piper you have to play the regulators with your wrist to get the rhythmic chordal accompaniment; only a small percentage pipers ever learn to do that with any skill (also tuning seven reeds to play together is a big challenge). Plus don't get me started on actually making reeds!

Anyway, that aside (and I haven't mentioned the harp tradition which is somewhat separate) I too think many Irish airs could be adapted to sitar and could even be used to form the soundscape for something approaching ICM. Many uilleann pipe airs are deceptively simple at first hearing, but there is a great beauty in the choice of mode* the notes and the timing used to bring out the emotion of the piece (*Irish trad uses modal scales, not western major and minor ones. Also the Sa note can vary from approximately Bflat through C, C# and then bang on D, for modern concert pitch pipes).

Who knows, a new form of ICM, approximating a raga could possibly be devised using such airs.

Sorry to derail my own thread btw. :roll:
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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #18 
The talk of Irish music brought back an amusing memory. My first lesson with Imrat Khan, at which point I am somewhat overawed, he is discussing similarities of Indian music to other music, and melodic/modal systems. To illustrate, he then sang a jaunty Irish jig melody. I regret not having started recording my lessons back then!

But I would agree that the styles of music that focus on melody and less on harmony do share much in common with Indian classical, and thus are more apt for fusion attempts. Basically, when sitar is used for fusion that has chord changes as an integral component of the music, it usually falls flat, but when fusion is done with music that is chiefly melodic in structure with minimal chord changes, it can be very nice indeed. Examples of this are Japanese music (PRS's excellent album along these lines), and even that piece of Ur-fusion, "Norwegian Wood", which does technically have chord changes but they are entirely secondary to the melody. Even the chorus where it switches to a minor version of the root chord, has a hint of how Pilu shifts between komal and shuddh Ga.
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chrisnovice

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Reply with quote  #19 
To my ears the first 30sec or so of this particular performance have a distinctly celtic feel...

UVK Bhatiyali Dhun

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Originally Posted by "chrisnovice"
To my ears the first 30sec or so of this particular performance have a distinctly celtic feel...

UVK Bhatiyali Dhun


Well the mode is a bit different and you have to ignore the meend (pitch variation uses a different style in Celtic trad) but yes, there are echoes of celtic singing or an Irish air to it.

I should mention that other branch of Celtic music, the Scot's Pibroch, played on the highland pipes. Having less notes to play with, this style also has a modal structure and carries similarities with the feeling of an alaap. It also grew out of the traditions of the Irish bronze strung harp (highland clans being descendants of invading Irish).

Not that I'm a fan of the highland pipes, mind. We often have highland pipers strike up a tune at Irish sessions here and there, totally deafening all in the room. At one such intrusion, an Irish friend of mine leant across and yelled in my ear, "Just like the Scots themselves...loud and simple!" Cracked me up.

Er, no offence to any Scottish forum members. :wink:
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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #21 
Here's another Bhatiyali dhun by his brother...has a very light and playful air to it. Play it on a fiddle without the ornaments and I doubt you'd easily recognize it as "Indian".


Bhupali also is one raag that seems, it being the major pentatonic, EVERYWHERE in music worldwide, particularly folk music.
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