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chrisitar

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http://mio.to/ILjt

http://mio.to/e8KE

Compare these two recordings. The first is by Pt Nikhil Banerjee from the album "Sitar Recital", the second is by Pt Kushal Das from the album "Inde du Nord". Kushal Das is one of my favorite players (mainly because he is as close to Nikhil as anyone i've ever heard), but he nor Partha Chaterjee (Nikhils student) were Kushal's guru. He studied under Sanjoy Bandopadhyay, who plays a unique mix of Senia and Etawah, closed bridge, gandhar pancham tuning. Any thoughts? I've never heard such 'copying' before.

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Kirya

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I am not sure why it would be a problem that a player who admires another would try and copy key phrase patterns and even the whole recording if they are good enough.

Yes they sound very similar and it sounds like the NB version is the model of perfection used for emulation.

I often try and do this too for any raga I am playing though I cannot say I get as close as Kushal Das has.

I have been able to learn several NB gats thanks to the contributions of Antarsitar on Youtube who provides enough clues and video for me to learn it.

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chrisitar

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Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I've just never heard anything copied 'word for word' like this before! And Kushal Das not being a student of Nikhil, Partha, or anyone from the Maihar camp was more surprising.

It does bring up the issue of plagiarism, though. I'm not sure what the law says about plagiarism in regard to ICM (likely nothing improv, right? ) but wouldn't you be a bit put off if someone copied a recording of yours and started selling it? I mean, sure, students are taught gats from their gurus and so they will inevitably play the same thing, but this is an extreme version of that, and he wasn't taught by NB. It's like he heard it, memorized it, played it in a studio recording and is now selling it as his own.

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Kirya

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I am not sure that NB really needs to worry -- his stuff is so hard to copy beyond some basic alap phrases and the gats. His phrasing has a signature that is unique to my ear.

I guess it can be argued that this is too close but I was only able to play a few minutes of the KD version and I have heard him play other NB compositions - he gets close but not close enough to be mistaken for NB. I suspect that if you listen to more you will hear the distinctive KD signature -- his RH is very powerful and fluent but quite different from NB to my ear.

But basically this is a music where you the preferred mode of instruction and teaching is to try and play as much like your teacher as possible -- even if your teacher is a recording and not alive anymore. So not sure what would be called unfair copying.

Honestly that is all that I ever try to do when I use a reference of any kind and am not playing on my own.

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theprosperone

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Quote:
Originally Posted by "chrisitar"
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I've just never heard anything copied 'word for word' like this before! And Kushal Das not being a student of Nikhil, Partha, or anyone from the Maihar camp was more surprising.

It does bring up the issue of plagiarism, though. I'm not sure what the law says about plagiarism in regard to ICM (likely nothing improv, right? ) but wouldn't you be a bit put off if someone copied a recording of yours and started selling it? I mean, sure, students are taught gats from their gurus and so they will inevitably play the same thing, but this is an extreme version of that, and he wasn't taught by NB. It's like he heard it, memorized it, played it in a studio recording and is now selling it as his own.
I met a tabla player who was teaching himself sitar. He had transcribed a complete Vilayat Khan recording of Yaman to learn all the taans and phrases. It was several pages of the tiniest writing and you could follow along with the whole recording. It makes sense though because half the time if you go to school for Jazz, you'll end up spending lots and lots of your time transcribing solos. I can imagine someone who is a very accomplished artist can simply learn ragas from listening to several recordings, or at least get close in emulating those specific performances of the Raga. I would guess you'll find many more similar performances in ragas with a more restrictive set of rules because the options for personal interpretation are more limited as well?
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Lars

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "chrisitar"
http://mio.to/ILjt

http://mio.to/e8KE

Compare these two recordings. The first is by Pt Nikhil Banerjee from the album "Sitar Recital", the second is by Pt Kushal Das from the album "Inde du Nord". Kushal Das is one of my favorite players (mainly because he is as close to Nikhil as anyone i've ever heard), but he nor Partha Chaterjee (Nikhils student) were Kushal's guru. He studied under Sanjoy Bandopadhyay, who plays a unique mix of Senia and Etawah, closed bridge, gandhar pancham tuning. Any thoughts? I've never heard such 'copying' before.
This is more common than not, a lot of borrowing is done. The Senia-Maihar gharana is sometimes jokingly referred to as the Sony-Maihar gharana since you can hear gats, phrases, etc. taken right from a CD. My opinion is that players that do this excessively aren't worth listening to, and this is not a statement to be taken as gospel it's just my own feeling. They may be technically very good but if you're 'borrowing' things learned from a recording at an extreme level then it's just an imitation and somethings missing. It's that very 'something' which distinguishes a great musician from a third rate one (love that parrikar term). It reminds me of a talented kid from Japan years ago who played Oscar Peterson (any jazz buffs here?) exactly like Oscar but you could always tell, maybe it was because he didn't grunt while playing

Lars

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chrisitar

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Originally Posted by "Kirya"
the preferred mode of instruction and teaching is to try and play as much like your teacher as possible -- even if your teacher is a recording and not alive anymore.
1. He sounds nothing like his guru, Pt Sanjoy Bandopadhyay, who plays a very Etawah style with GP tuning/jawari. Kushal Das sounds like he was taught by NB or Partha Chaterjee, or at least someone under Baba. His training bio mentions no Maihar guru.

2. Can a recording be your teacher? Many will disagree, at most I would say LOTS of recordings could give you the idea of a raga and you can expand upon it, but this example is taking a single recording and basically mimicking its every detail.

I mean no disrespect at all. Kushal Das is my #2 favorite sitarist, under NB. I just find this a bit perplexing and it opens up a grey area with this music. Imitation of your teacher is one thing, but a pro sitarist, a Pandit, copying a recording?

PS anyone have the liner notes/booklet to Inde du Nord by Kushal Das? Maybe something about NB's Sohini is mentioned there.

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nicneufeld

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Ram from on here has a wonderful rendering of Ust Vilayat Khan's Darbari from 1968...I don't know if its note for note but its very similar and wildly impressive to me . But not a recording of it, just a youtube video of a live performance, and he couches it as a performance of UVK's composition, so it is done with great respect.
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chrisitar

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Right, i've seen that and he gives credit to UVK. He was likely taught this composition from a guru of that gharana, not the case with this Sohini.
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Hamletsghost

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
It's that very 'something' which distinguishes a great musician from a third rate one (love that parrikar term).
Here Here Lars....
It's not that they are so to speak "BAD" musicians - they obviously have tallent to be able to copy a masters recording. And as Mark says when learning jazz you transcribe solos etc. to become proficient - BUT THEN you move on.
What is missing in a copied performance or recording isn't proficieny, isn't even tallent, it's SOUL. Taking a piece of music incorporating the things you love from the greats who went before, then moving the music forward and making it your own. THAT'S SOUL.
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It reminds me of a talented kid from Japan years ago who played Oscar Peterson (any jazz buffs here?) exactly like Oscar but you could always tell, maybe it was because he didn't grunt while playing

Oscar Peterson - name I haven't heard in a while - good stuff Lars. We were most fortunate in Chicago back in the 70's that Oscar would come to the city - many times solo or with Niels (Olaf) Pederson & the trio - and play at the old Rick's Cafe Americaine - A great old jazz club long gone built to look just like Ricks cafe in Casablanca.
Was fortunate enough to see Oscar play there at least a dozen times. Many times ringside about 5 feet from the piano keys. What a player....Right up there with the greatest tinkling the ivories....
Aside: I gave up on modern music in the 70's when disco came in and listened to nothing but Jazz til the early 80's - Saw some great artists that came thru Chicago from all generations & styles from Benny Goodman to Stanley Clark. Wanna talk about some players with SOUL -----

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