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Johnny6950

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Reply with quote  #1 
Greetings, from what I understand about micro tones from exploring the You Tube video about them, just as an example various ragas can have different flat positions of lets say the Re note (shruti). In equal temperment western scale ( using the C scale) komal Re or Db has no flat veriation. It's just called a D flat. Every D flat in equal temperment is the same but in Just temperment you may have 4 or more flat variations in North Indian Classical Music. However, when I looked at a Carnatic 12 note scale on the web, I noticed that some designations mean the same note of another designation. for instance- you have Sa (c) R1 (D-flat) R2 (D) G1 (also a D) R3 (E-flat) G2 (also E-flat) G3 (E) etc. So as you can see that R2 and G1 are the same note in the equal temperted scale. So as I observe the 72 main ragas of the carnatic system, can these ragas be played in equal temperment or are the microtones of the North Indian rags apply in South Indian Ragas? Thank You.
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talasiga

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Reply with quote  #2 
In my opinion, the western equivalents for the Carnatic shrootis are for convenience of rough illustration only based on the equal tempered 12 semitone keyboard. It is not accurate. There has to be a difference between for example R3 and G2 otherwise the Melakartha system fails as a practical listing for a microtonal system of music.

In my opinion one should not be misundersatnd a tradition on the the basis of a bad example or analogy used to explain the system. Using keyboard to explain shrootis is doomed to failure.

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Johnny6950"
Greetings, from what I understand about micro tones from exploring the You Tube video about them, just as an example various ragas can have different flat positions of lets say the Re note (shruti). In equal temperment western scale ( using the C scale) komal Re or Db has no flat veriation. It's just called a D flat. Every D flat in equal temperment is the same but in Just temperment you may have 4 or more flat variations in North Indian Classical Music. However, when I looked at a Carnatic 12 note scale on the web, I noticed that some designations mean the same note of another designation. for instance- you have Sa (c) R1 (D-flat) R2 (D) G1 (also a D) R3 (E-flat) G2 (also E-flat) G3 (E) etc. So as you can see that R2 and G1 are the same note in the equal temperted scale. So as I observe the 72 main ragas of the carnatic system, can these ragas be played in equal temperment or are the microtones of the North Indian rags apply in South Indian Ragas? Thank You.
The Carnatic soflege system says nothing about the microtonal value of particular swaras in a raga. It's best to think of the base tuning as just intonation, same as in the Hindustani tradition, and Re, Ga, Dha, and Ni having certain positions that are enharmonic equivalents with adjacent scale degrees.

The reason for this is that the Carnatic Mela systems is exhaustive in the number of 7 tone scales obtainable with the proviso that they must contain both the Sa and Pa and only one variety of Ma (i.e. the 72 melas). Thus, in Hindustani terms, there are scales such as Sa ReK Re Ma Pa DhaK Dha in Carnatic music that are not allowed in Hindustani music. To facilitate the sargam in such scales the Re becomes Ga1 (pronounced simply Ga in the solfege) and the Dha becomes Ni1 (pronounced Ni in the solfege).

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "talasiga"
In my opinion, the western equivalents for the Carnatic shrootis are for convenience of rough illustration only based on the equal tempered 12 semitone keyboard. It is not accurate. There has to be a difference between for example R3 and G2 otherwise the Melakartha system fails as a practical listing for a microtonal system of music.

In my opinion one should not be misundersatnd a tradition on the the basis of a bad example or analogy used to explain the system. Using keyboard to explain shrootis is doomed to failure.
Johnny6950,
Further to my earlier comment please see
this article, ESPECIALLY, TABLE III
which gives example of Carnatic shrootis in C octave.

The discusssion of keyboard limitation and infinite points within any octave are consistent with understanding that underpin some of my contributions in these forums.

I hope the table answers your question.

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Johnny6950

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thank You Talasiga, I have copied all 46 pages and I will read the entire article. However I wonder why in a sense that with all the books published on Indian Classical Music with the Raga information ( ascending, descending, aroho, avroho, pakad, chalen etc.) why no one can put the frequency or fret postion examples of where to place the microtone of each Raga. I understand this would be a great undertaking as for example Raga whatchamacallit Sa - Komal Re - Ga - Ma - Pa - Dha - Ni - Sa, lets say Komal Re has four different komal positions or microtones. Say Komal Re 2. The same whatchamacallit raga of another gharana or teacher or Guru may be Komal position 3 or komal position 4. But if one were to stick to a standardized Raga then at least one of those Ragas would be played as a true Raga and would satisfy people like me to at least not feel embarassed or ashamed about playing a Raga or even saying to a group that your playing for, this is Raga whatchamacallit of the standard tuning teaching. At least there would be some common ground of acceptance in the West as well as the East. I don't know if anyone is up for the challenge or the ridicule. However it would be a relief to those of us who can't go India, San Francisco, New York City, Austin or wherever and at a costly expense. I think also by sharing this knowledge it will promote not only good will but also a better understanding of this wonderful God given music to the world. Lets face it the cat is out of the bag when Ravi Shankar and the many Indian performers and great masters including the Beatles and other artists opened the door to the world.
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Johnny6950"
Thank You Talasiga, I have copied all 46 pages and I will read the entire article. However I wonder why in a sense that with all the books published on Indian Classical Music with the Raga information ( ascending, descending, aroho, avroho, pakad, chalen etc.) why no one can put the frequency or fret postion examples of where to place the microtone of each Raga. I understand this would be a great undertaking as for example Raga whatchamacallit Sa - Komal Re - Ga - Ma - Pa - Dha - Ni - Sa, lets say Komal Re has four different komal positions or microtones. Say Komal Re 2. The same whatchamacallit raga of another gharana or teacher or Guru may be Komal position 3 or komal position 4. But if one were to stick to a standardized Raga then at least one of those Ragas would be played as a true Raga and would satisfy people like me to at least not feel embarassed or ashamed about playing a Raga or even saying to a group that your playing for, this is Raga whatchamacallit of the standard tuning teaching. At least there would be some common ground of acceptance in the West as well as the East. I don't know if anyone is up for the challenge or the ridicule. However it would be a relief to those of us who can't go India, San Francisco, New York City, Austin or wherever and at a costly expense. I think also by sharing this knowledge it will promote not only good will but also a better understanding of this wonderful God given music to the world. Lets face it the cat is out of the bag when Ravi Shankar and the many Indian performers and great masters including the Beatles and other artists opened the door to the world.
I suspect that the main reason for that is that there is wide disagreement on the whole issue of shrutis. The ancient literature which is often quoted for the theoretical basis of the "22 shruti" system has very little to do with contemporary musical practice, e.g. in the ancient system the Sa and Pa had shrutis as well, and the Ni was the tonic, etc...

There have been debates about this on this very forum, underlining the disagreements on the issue. The article shows the tonic Sa and the Pa as perfect 5th away from it, supposedly claiming to be the standard in the Karnatic tradition, yet, on this forum, we've had prominent musicians from another tradition telling us that they employ multiple microtones for both the Sa and Pa!

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Johnny6950"
Thank You Talasiga, I have copied all 46 pages and I will read the entire article. However I wonder why in a sense that with all the books published on Indian Classical Music with the Raga information ( ascending, descending, aroho, avroho, pakad, chalen etc.) why no one can put the frequency or fret postion examples of where to place the microtone of each Raga. I understand this would be a great undertaking as for example Raga whatchamacallit Sa - Komal Re - Ga - Ma - Pa - Dha - Ni - Sa, lets say Komal Re has four different komal positions or microtones. Say Komal Re 2. The same whatchamacallit raga of another gharana or teacher or Guru may be Komal position 3 or komal position 4. But if one were to stick to a standardized Raga then at least one of those Ragas would be played as a true Raga and would satisfy people like me to at least not feel embarassed or ashamed about playing a Raga or even saying to a group that your playing for, this is Raga whatchamacallit of the standard tuning teaching. At least there would be some common ground of acceptance in the West as well as the East. I don't know if anyone is up for the challenge or the ridicule. However it would be a relief to those of us who can't go India, San Francisco, New York City, Austin or wherever and at a costly expense. I think also by sharing this knowledge it will promote not only good will but also a better understanding of this wonderful God given music to the world. Lets face it the cat is out of the bag when Ravi Shankar and the many Indian performers and great masters including the Beatles and other artists opened the door to the world.

I think you're over-complicating the issue when it comes to trying to just play one raga and do it justice. You don't have to worry about the whole world of shrutis to be able to play one raga. All you need to know are all the subtleties, rules and shrutis of THAT raga. Indian music isn't taught by memorizing all the shrutis and scales first and then just reading a chart of ragas' notes to pick whatever you want to play. Much more goes into the color of a raga than just the specific shrutis used. This information is unveiled slowly over time as you develop a better picture of how to play this music in general. You're also never going to get a system for a "Standardized raga" because of the difference in gharannas. There can be great differences to how two great players approach a raga. This is part of the beauty of this music.


You're also just going to have to accept the fact that if you REALLY want to take this music seriously, you're going to need a teacher. There is no way around it. All the books, videos and forum posts in the world will not be able to teach you about this music like a teacher. There are systematic ways of teaching that slowly unveil the many mysteries of technique and theory one encounters while learning this music. That guidances is greatly important. Where do you live? There are teachers in many places other than the few you mentioned. I replied to your other thread as well in general discussion. Hope you can see what I'm saying. Its great to be interested and to delve deeply into learning everthing you can on your own. I can guarantee that any pains and troubles you encounter trying to find a teacher will be well worth it though.
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Johnny6950

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Reply with quote  #8 
Thank You! and Thank You all. You have opened up a much larger world for me.
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talasiga

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Johnny6950"
Thank You Talasiga, I have copied all 46 pages and I will read the entire article. However I wonder why in a sense that with all the books published on Indian Classical Music with the Raga information ( ascending, descending, aroho, avroho, pakad, chalen etc.) why no one can put the frequency or fret postion examples of where to place the microtone of each Raga.

.......
This is a very nice question. There are I think 5 main things we need to understand to fruitfully ponder the query:

1) the timbre of instruments vary, even between same instruments, particularly where made by different makers or with different materials(even western violins made by different makers vary in TIMBRE)

2) timbre is the harmonic profile of a sound and the profile is informed by the particular harmonic series in that sound's resonance. Just intoned scales, being natural scales, are derived from intervals found in these naturally occurring harmonic series.

3) the timbre of an instrument may be affected by climatic and other influences on the material instrument

4) the discernible distinctions between, say, four diffrent just intoned natural 6ths, is a matter of fine tuning and a set fret (or prescribed positions on fretless instruments) may not always give that result consistently on of, say, point3, and in any case would be impractical because you may need anything up to 36 frets or points according to some reckonings (even 84 to the octave if you were into Byzantine microtones!)

5) good microtonal musicians do not play roboticly but tune and play truly by EAR fine tuning their articulation as they go, and also

6) CRUCIALLY, because the intonation of a specific raaga, is articulated with reference to a scale implied in the harmonic series of the Sa (the tonic) at that point of time and space.

This is why indic singers and musicians spend months on months practising just
SA. It is not that they are handicapped and can't sing a note in tune unless they practice it for 6 months. They are meant to delve into the very fundament of a root note that itself will guide their just intoned sensibility.

This is because every single naturally occuring note carries in it a blueprint for a just intoned microtonal scale.

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #10 
The other peculiarity with the sitar's construction is that it is somewhat ''tempered'' in its set up.

There's a Ma and a Sa string and the same set of frets running over both. This, of course, means that for example the interval between a Shuddh Ma and Teevra Ma is the same on the sitar as that between a Sa and Komal Re. Then it naturally follows from this that the interval between Sa and Shuddh Re is the same as that between Shuddh Ma and Pa, and so on and so forth...

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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DrKashyap

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "jaan
The other peculiarity with the sitar's construction is that it is somewhat ''tempered'' in its set up.

There's a Ma and a Sa string and the same set of frets running over both. This, of course, means that for example the interval between a Shuddh Ma and Teevra Ma is the same on the sitar as that between a Sa and Komal Re. Then it naturally follows from this that the interval between Sa and Shuddh Re is the same as that between Shuddh Ma and Pa, and so on and so forth...
Very well said. That means all the non freted instruments are the ideal instruments to demonstrate finer nuances of Indian classical music.
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panchamkauns

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Johnny6950"
At least there would be some common ground of acceptance in the West as well as the East.
If someone tries to make one of many ways the ”standard” way, it won’t create any common ground, just bad blood.

If Omaba says that a vote for the Democrats is the ”standard vote”, does that create some common ground with Republicans?

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