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why

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Posts: 87
Reply with quote  #61 
I just bought a birth certificate ~ "authentic" that says I was born in 1986 ~ but it was 84... I was hiking in Dharmasala, and bought on the way and made sure it was "very official looking" ~ i mean its only two years off my actual age...
This is happenstance ~ I could have bought one in any of the cities I have been in in Asia (some part of Europe as well~). My Point is i am 24 from today. Yeah thats the ticket...
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Dspeck

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Reply with quote  #62 
Perhaps I missed it, but the western keys all used to be relative to the same base note (these days, we are using tuning forks for A at 442 hz). Using a tempered tuning, the keys have no significant differences. But using a relative system, stacking pure fifth on top of each other (c g d a e b f# c# g# d# a# e# h#) will result in a chromatic scale on which all other scales are based. Going up in pure fourth, you get the flat notes (c f bb eb ab db gb cb fb - usually stops here - bbb ebb abb dbb) This chromatic scale is mathematically incorrect and results in different intervals at different keys. However, this was accepted for a long time and composers enjoyed the different characteristics of each key. Though, a few keys were hard to listen to unless certain intervals were avoided. The well known work "Well Tempered Piano" by Johann Sebastian Bach promoted a different tuning system that smoothed the differences. Keys are still important to western classical music. Many instruments are best played in certain keys due to their design. Furthermore, WCM is based on modes and musical pieces that consist of several movements often use different keys for each movement in order to create changes in mood. Today, the different characteristics of the keys are pretty much a legend, but in order to play old music on modern instruments, it is good to know why the composer chose a specific key, since he wanted the character of that key.

Keys should not be confused with scales. Most western scales are simply derived from the major scale, by redefining another note as the base note. Additionally, there are two modified minor scales, harmonic and melodic. Harmonic minor has an augmented 7th which leads back to the base note. Melodic minor has an augmented 6th and 7th which makes the upper cluster the same as the major scale. In order to discinct melodic minor from major, it is only played this way upwards but downwards it is played just like the natural minor.

By the way, non-tempered tuning has not completely vanished from WCM, wind and string instruments with non-fixed keys still make a difference between flat and sharp notes, in C-Major, fb is not e, f# is not gb, etc.
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sung

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Dspeck"
... Keys are still important to western classical music. ...
Hello Dspeck. Okay. But, in ICM when a given song in a particular raag such as bilwal (or sankarabharanam), namely the western major scale, is sung in different keys by different singers (depending on their natural sruti or suhr), it is considered the same. One simply says that the same song is sung in different srutis or suhr. Nothing more than that. So, the question is: what constitutes a basic difference in the listeners of the two systems, namely WCM and ICM? In the former, different keys are considered different, while in the latter, different keys are considered the same. Why and how? What is your take on this?
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Dspeck

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "sung"
In the former, different keys are considered different, while in the latter, different keys are considered the same. Why and how? What is your take on this?
Keys used to have different characters due to natural tuning of the instruments - each key being relative to each other. And these characters were an important part of the composition. The characters were lost with the succesfull introduction of tempered tuning though.
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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #65 
I still don't believe keys completely lost their character when equal temperament was introduced. Each individual note has its own specific frequency and because of that each note has a character all its own. I don't think it takes having perfect pitch to be able to notice this either. I find it hard to believe that moving the tonic will not change the overall sound of whatever music is being created. This is not to say Desh can not sound like Desh with a tonic of A, G, C# or whatever. Still, I feel like each tonic will alter the sound of the music in a noticeable way. I don't think this interferes with the ability to render a raga from different tonics though, I just see it as another aspect that adds to ones individual sound and color. I think the key signature obviously has a much broader and more noticeable effect when involving chordal music. I find it odd because this is something that really jumps out at me when listening and learning music.
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Dspeck

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Reply with quote  #66 
Here you can find some very interesting articles about different intonation methods. There are many sound samples as well:

http://www.kylegann.com/microtonality.html
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Christianamr

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Reply with quote  #67 
Ths topic has lots of relevant info and I merely flew over it .
Most interesting were the mentions of different moods associated with keys in WCM .

But then there were some instances of people saying that some specific indian thaats and melas ( mentioned in this thread ) aren

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martin spaink

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Reply with quote  #68 
Just gone over this thread, lots of posts here. I feel inclined to add a few nuances here and there about the history of temperament in the West. This is mostly a keyboard affair, though practical problems in 16th century polyphony sung by choirs also have to do with the matter. Keyboard instruments have been around a long time, from portable organetto's, (wind is made with one hand, play with the other) in the 14 century, clavesimbalum a bit later that could be played with two hands. From the 11th century Pythagorean tuning was in use, as can be understood from later treatises by Guido of Arezzo, Aarnout van Zwolle. When we come to the 16th and 17 th century, there is a rising of purely instrumental music, before that instrumentalists played along with vocal music, or gave an instrumental version of what was still basically vocal music. As these instrumental styles were developed, matters of temperament claimed attention. Much has been written on this subject, particularly in Italy: Arnolt Schlick 1511, Pietro Aaron 1523, Gioseffe Zarlino 1558 and Vincenzo Galileo (father of) 1568, 1584, P
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martin spaink

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Reply with quote  #69 
Hello again, since I wrote this up and am responsible for what I send into the world, I just made one correction and added a few lines. I readily agree that it does not relate directly to ICM but since many discussions focus on systems of tuning, I thought to clarify what happened in the west, and is happening to the rest of the world, give it time. Mainstream of course, but diversity thrives none the less.
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