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povster

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Reply with quote  #31 
GF, when I say "bass sitar" I mean exactly that. You take a sitar performance and play it identically on a surbahar - you have a "bass sitar".

You keep coming into this from a "fingering technique" perspective and that is NOT what I am saying. That is the reason you think I am saying Imrat Khan plays "bass sitar", because he uses a single mizrab. That is a very unfounded assumption about me on your part.

When I say there are different techniques I mean just that. But I am not talking about which fingers are being placed where. I am talking about techniques of form, shape, pattern etc that differ between sitar and surbahar. That reflect dhrupad and the surbahar's origins more than kheyal style sitar.

To put it as plainly as I can, you are not playing sitar, or playing surbahar, or playing rudra vin. You are playing North Indian Classical Music and using the instruments as a vehicle to convey that music. The differing forms of ICM dictate what instrument is used and how they are used. And when I say "how" I am not talking about how many fingers. I am talking about the form itself.

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...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official bread of ICM
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #32 
I had no lack of clarity on that Pov, none whatsoever.
And Ustad Imrat Khan most definitely does NOT play
"Bass Sitar". Why would anyone want to anyway?
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #33 
Ahhhh !! Silly me !! I see the light, the source of all this "bass sitar" falderol.
If I may, I will quote from my first post on this thread:

"That is why the instrument was designed in the manner that it was - to allow sitar players to use the same technique(s) on a bass instrument, that they already have developed for sitar. "

Apparently "bass instrument" was a no-no !! Would it have saved us this misunderstanding if I had said "an instrument in the range of the Rudra Veena" or "a long scale instrument in the tonal range of the Bin". Could we have avoided this silliness?

"Some people (meaning me obviously) need to learn the differnce between a bass sitar and a surbahar". Really !! Do tell !! I was building surbahars before many of you were born. Believe me, I know the difference between a bass sitar and a surbahar....

And apparently I also need instruction on the differences between khyal and druhpad?? I lived in the home of the man who INVENTED gayaki ang - perhaps the ultimate expression of khyal. I "think" I know the difference between khyal and druhpad !! I was WAY into the Dagar Bros. before I even went to India - I believe I know the difference between druhpad and khyal - and this is not book learning.

I was THERE. I lived it. And here is the point: The man here - Thirri - asked for help in GETTING STARTED on surbahar. He did NOT ask for a dissertation displaying our great knowledge of the intricacies of ICM. or the finer points of surbahar gharanas, etc etc. GETTING STARTED.

Why must that be so complicated? It is oh so easy to become an "expert" online. As Brad Paisley says "I am so much cooler online". Well I am not an expert, I am just someone who has lived it and IS living it into the present day. It has been over 5 decades now. And I can tell you this:

Nobody knows it all, and the great ones - the truly great ones that I have been lucky to meet - feel no need to display their knowledge. They also know that druhpad or khyal MUSIC IS MUSIC. GF
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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
And apparently I also need instruction on the differences between khyal and druhpad?? I lived in the home of the man who INVENTED gayaki ang -
Vilayat Khan certainly cultivated his own great and unique version of that style, and did more than anybody else to popularize it on the sitar, but he did not invent it.

That trend in instrumental music, "bīṇkār bāj gāykī aṅg", was pioneered at least as early as Rais Khan's father Mohammad Khan (if not an earlier ancestor in that line still), with whom Vilayat studied early on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
perhaps the ultimate expression of khyal. I "think" I know the difference between khyal and druhpad !! I was WAY into the Dagar Bros. before I even went to India - I believe I know the difference between druhpad and khyal - and this is not book learning.
There's nothing wrong with book learning. No one of us can directly experience more than ONE life, but through books we have access to a condensation of the most relevant information gained from MANY peoples' lives and experiences.

Any sentence you post to this forum, that ends up being read by and informing someone else, is no different from a similar sentence read from a book. Someone typed it, another person read it.

To the point though, I don't personally doubt, but neither care, what you know about dhrupad or khyal. What bothers me is your rudeness to Nic. Live and study with Vilayat Khan 100 years, and it would still not be your place to mandate what others may and may not post here. Neither Nic nor Thlm either one asked you to assume the role of his guru.

If you're not interested in something posted here, ignore it. If you disagree with something posted here, politely argue against it. Please do not, however, tell others what they may and may not talk about, or tell them how they should or should not respond to someone else's questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
I was THERE. I lived it. And here is the point: The man here - Thirri - asked for help in GETTING STARTED on surbahar. He did NOT ask for a dissertation displaying our great knowledge of the intricacies of ICM. or the finer points of surbahar gharanas, etc etc. GETTING STARTED.
I don't find Thlm anywhere in the thread refusing dissertations on anything, and none of these threads is for the benefit solely of the original poster. That's why we post publicly and not through private message, and I find everything Nic chooses to post very interesting and almost always correct, as far as I am informed myself (I'm sure you know much better).

When I first got a sitar, almost 30 years ago, I would have happily received as MUCH information as anybody would have cared to give me. Not everybody is a simpleton who must have info watered down and spoon fed to him like a baby. Many of us verily CRAVE as much accurate information and detail as we can get our hands on. Not everybody learns at the same rate, my friend, and not everybody has difficulty sorting and absorbing a large flux of info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
Why must that be so complicated?
Why SHOULDN'T it be complicated?

Life is complicated, the truth, unless we just insist on watering it down, is usually complicated, and classical Indian music too is very complex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
It is oh so easy to become an "expert" online. As Brad Paisley says "I am so much cooler online". Well I am not an expert, I am just someone who has lived it and IS living it into the present day. It has been over 5 decades now.
And, just as you noted yourself, Nic always includes a disclaimer that he is NOT an expert, so I really don't understand how you got to this place in your argument.

I think your real problem lies somewhere else, in something you're not willing or able to directly say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
And I can tell you this:
Nobody knows it all, and the great ones - the truly great ones that I have been lucky to meet - feel no need to display their knowledge.
So you're saying that if we were all great, we would never post any advice here at all?



David
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #35 
If we were all great, we would be charging for our advice

There is a big difference in my opinion, between real advice and
pointless knowledge display/regurgitation. It is so very difficult
for a new player to know WHERE advice is coming from in terms
of validity or experience. Damage can so easily be done by well-
meaning beginners who give advice before gaining experience. I
am not speaking of months, I am speaking of years.

ICM is indeed very complex, all the MORE reason to "keep it simple"
for a new player starting out. We all know how to use the web these
days, we are all capable of doing the extensive research NicNue has
abviously done if we want or care to. BTW NicNue, I was pretty hard
on you and I think you handled it well. You are obviously very bright.

Books are INVALUABLE, as are the recordings we are blessed to have.

But in the final analysis there simply is NO substitute for first-hand
experience in the trenches. Any time I see wrong advice, especially
from those who have no real experience, or any elitism I am going to
call it like I see it and I will always attempt to keep that professional
in tone. I am not interested in character assasination and in fact as
NicNue will testify I made the way very smooth for him with UIK.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. GF
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #36 
BTW David, I figured someone would dispute the invention of gayaki ang.

Like many things in ICM, including among others the actual invention of
the surbahar, there are several versions floating around. Myself, for the
invention/evolution of gayaki ang tend to favor the version you present
here. Like so many things it probably was the creation of several people.

Naturally Ustad Vilayat Khan would never claim anything, he never spoke
to me about this, he probably found the entire gayaki ang thing amusing
at best, and I am sure he could care less. RIP - I only wish you were still
with us in the physical world. Your influence and your shining soul are
everywhere, I hope the work I am doing is worthy of your legacy Ustad.

GF
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #37 
All I'll say re teaching is...

Even a fool can teach you something, if only how NOT to do a thing.

Nick
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