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Kaushiki / Kaunsi Kanada GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
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Senior Member 749 posts Kirya Senior Member 749 posts
Kirya
I have live concert recordings by Nikhil Banerjee of

1985 Kaunsi Kannada (almost 80 minutes long) and

a 1977 DLMC Concert of Rag Kaushiki that is almost 100 minutes long

They are quite different even though have similarities, I do not have the musical knowledge to be able to describe the differences in way that might be more useful to others.

If you can get access to these recordings and you listen I think you will see that at least for Nikhil the two were quite different and distinct.
Kirya in CA
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anandvyasorg 229 posts
anandvyasorg
Great Performance I agree. And you are right ~ come on Povster you know you got the "brains" for this . Thats cool brother that you dropped out once it started getting a little heated ~ i need to learn that from you
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
ragamala wrote:
I have never thought of Malkauns as other than Bhairavi, but then the ten thaat concept is somewhat arbitrary and rul-of-thumb, and with Malkauns being pentatonic you would have to dig deeper to say more. However Sampoorna Malkauns has Shuddh re, not komal, so difficult to plop that version in Bhairavi I think? As for Kaushi Kanada......
Some people conflate notions of tH
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
I thank you for that, anandvyasorg (but I will say some heat never bothered me) and also thank Ragmala. But it IS true. I do not have a brain for the theory stuff. I know absolutley zero about Western music or about music throry in general. A while back I was helping out a friend with tuning and realized I actually did not know what Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni equated to in the Western scale (if there IS such a single thing). I actually had to call someone about it. I know the basics from grammar school - C D E F G A B C. But looking at the full basic ICM scale using C as the first note in the scale:

Sa = C
Komal Re = C# or D flat? IS there a C# and/or a D flat? I have no idea.
Shuddha Re = D
Komal Gha - is it D# or E flat? Again - do both exist?
And so on.

So I learned whatever I know by sitting with my teacher and playing what he played and listening to him talk about the nature and characteristics of whatever raga we were currently working on. But the stuff jaan was talking about is simply beyond me.

So when jaan starts talking about "Yet all the variants of Kauns that include the second scale degree" my brow furrows and I say to m,yslef "what the heck is a second scale degree?"

What I will say in my own simple way is that each raga has its own characteristics. And citing a mixed raga with a second scale degree (??) well - whatever raga that is it is its own raga. It may have taken from Malkauns and from another raga but that does not mean it must follow all that is Malkauns. If it did it would BE Malkauns.

So as you can see - theory and I do not get along very well.
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
There are 7 scale degrees or Saptak in Hindustani parlance (sapt comes from the word for the number 7 in Indian languages and is related to word English word 'seven' etymologically). In Indian music they are known as Shadja (1st), Rishabh (2nd), Gandhar (3rd), Madhyam (4th), Pancham (5th), Dhaivat (6th), Nishad (7th). Malkauns omits the 2nd and 5th scale degrees, i.e. Reshab and Pancham.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
jaan wrote:
There are 7 scale degrees or Saptak in Hindustani parlance (sapt comes from the word for the number 7 in Indian languages and is related to word English word 'seven' etymologically). In Indian music they are known as Shadja (1st), Rishabh (2nd), Gandhar (3rd), Madhyam (4th), Pancham (5th), Dhaivat (6th), Nishad (7th). Malkauns omits the 2nd and 5th scale degrees, i.e. Reshab and Pancham.
I know all of that. It is basic enough. What I did not know was the term "scale degrees" and the use of "second scale degree" rather than just saying Re. Seems a lot easier and more direct saying "ragas that use Re" rather than "ragas using the second scale degree". Sounds a bit like Marcotty referring to a raga not as a raga but as a "sound-wave formation". I know in conversation it will be a hell of a lot more convenient to say "your Gha is a touch sharp" rather than saying "your 3rd scale degree is a bit sharp". And I bet a lot more folk will understand the former over the latter.

I am also still fairly unclear on "transposition" (honestly).
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
povster wrote:
I know all of that. It is basic enough. What I did not know was the term "scale degrees" and the use of "second scale degree" rather than just saying Re. Seems a lot easier and more direct saying "ragas that use Re" rather than "ragas using the second scale degree".
You are quoting out of context, hence the confusion. I paraphrase what I said, "Kauns R
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
jaan wrote:
I know all of that. It is basic enough. What I did not know was the term "scale degrees" and the use of "second scale degree" rather than just saying Re. Seems a lot easier and more direct saying "ragas that use Re" rather than "ragas using the second scale degree".
You are quoting out of context, hence the confusion. I paraphrase what I said, "Kauns R
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Yes but I didn't know that you didn't know.

You were surprised by someone associating Malkauns with Asavari tH
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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anandvyasorg 229 posts
anandvyasorg
Dude JUST BEND FROM MA TO TIVRA MA in Malkouns and you FEEL the MINOR mode. Therefore Pa is what makes DHA sound SAD. Without its reference it CANNOT be put in the same Thaat or Mode (or Minor Scale, Natural in this case) as Asavari. This is simple sound. Do the Meend I speak of. Ma to TIVRA Ma in Malkouns, that sounds like a minor scale and without the PA reference it is no longer that which it WAS. Hence having to put it somewhere other than the SADEST of all scales. Malkouns can NEVER be AS SAD no matter which way we play it than Just Asavari Thaat itself. Yet every other Raga has that sadness in that thaat. Stop thinking so much and FEEL this MUSIC
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
anandvyasorg wrote:
Dude JUST BEND FROM MA TO TIVRA MA in Malkouns and you FEEL the MINOR mode. Therefore Pa is what makes DHA sound SAD. Without its reference it CANNOT be put in the same Thaat or Mode (or Minor Scale, Natural in this case) as Asavari. This is simple sound. Do the Meend I speak of. Ma to TIVRA Ma in Malkouns, that sounds like a minor scale and without the PA reference it is no longer that which it WAS. Hence having to put it somewhere other than the SADEST of all scales. Malkouns can NEVER be AS SAD no matter which way we play it than Just Asavari Thaat itself. Yet every other Raga has that sadness in that thaat. Stop thinking so much and FEEL this MUSIC
I have little idea what you are talking about here

I have little idea what you are talking about here but I have no desire to FEEL anything if the result of that feeling is so wrong. Komal Re Asavari is even more serious and introverted than shuddh Re variaties and yet it uses the exact same notes as R
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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anandvyasorg 229 posts
anandvyasorg
Asavari with Shuddha RE is known as the SADDEST of all scales. My God ~ Komal Re makes it majestic and longing but not SAD. Dude it is simple ~ Because THE TONIC HAS SHIFTED to MA Komal DHA is not SAD anymore. There is one sad bend ~ Ma to Komal Ga. I said tune your instrument and drone to Malauns and try a bend (that is not in the Raga) from Shuddha Ma to Tivra Ma. You can hear the SHIFT of the TONIC.
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Okay, I think this is getting a little too "vedic" for me.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
Yes but I didn't know that you didn't know.

You were surprised by someone associating Malkauns with Asavari tH
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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anandvyasorg 229 posts
anandvyasorg
Exactly Povster ~ it basically doesn't happen in ICM. Though to answer the question sometimes when you shift intervals (on a drone instrument like a Sarod Sitar etc) you would re-tune if you had the time. If you are playing with a group however ~ you would play your Sitar (or instrument) like a flute or single note instrument and NEVER hit anything but the main string. You drone ~ you're done ~ at least in that case (with other musicians if they transpose to another key) but if you tune ahead of time all 12 sympathetics to every note in the Chromatic Scale you can treat the sitar as a Single Note instrument (Flute Sax etc.) and simply not drone. This of course now is out of the context of Indian Classical Theory. Not that it is not understood ~ it is ~ but not used is all. As you said ~ most artists stick to their "Sa" (C, C#, D, whatever) throughout their lives and careers because, at least my Guru, says that one begins to "get to know" their "own" Sa more and more every day. He says "There is so little time and so MUCH WORK in this, find one Sa and stick with if possible and it will make it easier, else 12 lifetimes are not enough to master this music" The other notes are relative anyway to Sa and even Pa (or Ma if that is the "pa").
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
povster wrote:
After you explained scale degrees I also looked it up. Interesting new term for me. So I looked up transposition as well. It sounds like you take the scale of a raga and just start Sa on a diferent note but maintain the same intervals? Whcih doesn't make a lot of sense to me in ICM since Sa is shiftable and not fixed to, say, C.

Or in transposition in ICM does one shift the "Sa" but keep the drone to whatever pitch your original Sa was tuned to? If so, what does one do with the chicaris in the case of a stringed instrument? Do they also get shifted to the new pitch or do they remain at the original (pre-transposition) pitch?
Its practical application I think is limited to bringing out chayas of different R
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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