INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #1 
This is sadly not the first article that I have recently read to the effect that classical music in Pakistan is in trouble (In an article I can no longer locate Shaqat Ali Khan bemoaned the fact that classically trained musicians have a very hard time making a living in Pakistan).
Quote:
One often gets the sense that classical music is breathing its last in Pakistan, the death throes so painful that one prays against one’s will for its quick demise. The thought of efforts aimed at its revival evoke dread rather than hope. Why not let it rest in peace? After all, the death of classical music in Pakistan will not be the death of classical music. It is alive and well in India and flourishing in the West. Even if it were not, there is now a storehouse of exquisite recordings that are infinitely more pleasurable compared to the indignities music has to endure at live performances in Pakistan.
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/classical-music-in-pakistan-a-requiem/

I'm curious as to what insight others might have about this.

Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
trippy monkey

Registered:
Posts: 4,281
Reply with quote  #2 
Please check out Youtube for many recent performances of classical music in Pakistan.

Nick
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #3 
You might like to check out on Facebook the Lahore Music Forum.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lahore-Music-Forum/193315500704256

They are active, have regular high quality performances, and are sure to advise you.

The web site
http://lahoremusicforum.com/ is "coming soon"
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
You might like to check out on Facebook the Lahore Music Forum.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lahore-Music-Forum/193315500704256

They are active, have regular high quality performances, and are sure to advise you.

The web site
http://lahoremusicforum.com/ is "coming soon"
The intent of my initial post was not explicit enough. Let me explain. I've subscribed to LMF (Lahore Music forum) on youtube quite some time ago, and have listened to nearly all their videos, and have frequently posted links to some notable performances. I note, however, that they currently have a total of 211 subscribers and the majority of their videos have only a few hundred viewers, with a few of the better known musicians (e.g. Shafqat Ali Khan, Shujat Ali Khan) having a few thousand viewers. The entire channel has a total of 116,000 views for 62 videos in spite of being 18 months online. By comparison, Coke Studio Pakistan (a four year old venue for popular/fusion light-classical music which I quite like) has over 140,000 subscribers and over 75 million views. I fully expect for there to be a gap between the popular and the classical genre (this is true both east and west of course), but such a yawning gap of over 600 to 1, to my mind, rather reinforces the lament of the article I posted, namely that classical music in Pakistan seems to be in danger of all but disappearing for lack of an audience (but not a lack of musicians).

I am curious as to why classical music seems to be thriving in India while apparently languishing in Pakistan in spite of their common tradition. I am curious as to whether or not anyone here has any insights into this state of affairs (and as noted earlier, none other than Shafqat Ali Khan has recently written that he, and other fellow classical musicians, can no longer make a living in Pakistan).


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Pascal

My intention of highlighting Lahore Music Forum on Facebook (rather than youtube) was to suggest that you might pose your question there. Although the c600 "likes" will not all be Lahore or Pakistan FB users, there is surely a good number of people there with more knowledge than many of us here on an international and western-based forum have. Why not send Lahore Music Forum a message? This organisation was surely set up to tackle the issue, and to be fair, the results may not be judged when they have only been active for a year or two.

Whether ICM is flourishing in India is another question. I wonder how the top artists would manage without the lucrative western tours and cd sales.
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
Hi Pascal

My intention of highlighting Lahore Music Forum on Facebook (rather than youtube) was to suggest that you might pose your question there. Although the c600 "likes" will not all be Lahore or Pakistan FB users, there is surely a good number of people there with more knowledge than many of us here on an international and western-based forum have. Why not send Lahore Music Forum a message? This organisation was surely set up to tackle the issue, and to be fair, the results may not be judged when they have only been active for a year or two.

Whether ICM is flourishing in India is another question. I wonder how the top artists would manage without the lucrative western tours and cd sales.
I don't have an account on Facebook, and I'm a bit reticent at doing so (I can't help but associate it with a younger crowd, catering to more youthful social needs that have long receded into my past! But perhaps I am wrong?)

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that ICM was doing fairly well in India, at least as well as can be expected of a classical genre (western classical music occupies roughly only 3% of the market in the US). I was under the impression that classical concerts are fairly well attended in India (but how lucrative they are is another question) and while western concert tours are fairly lucrative, CD sales I believe are much less so (as can be seen on the sales ranking at Amazon) as it seems to be a niche market within a niche market!

If I were allowed a single generalization, I would say that it seems to me that religion in India has mostly a friendly and even welcoming relationship with classical music while in religion in Pakistan has, at the very least an uneasy relationship with it (and music generally), and quite possibly becoming more difficult.


I suspect that the truth is actually much more nuanced than this, but this is simply by way of starting the conversation and inquiry.


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"

I don't have an account on Facebook, and I'm a bit reticent at doing so (I can't help but associate it with a younger crowd, catering to more youthful social needs that have long receded into my past! But perhaps I am wrong?)

Pascal
I'm in my midsixties. Absolutely, FB's for us younger generation! lol

I don't feel it's my place to comment on ICM in India or Pakistan, as anything I said would only be anecdotal, based on my own experience and the (differing) views that are expressed to me when I'm there.

But certainly if you look at the major festivals, like Saptak, DLMC you see full houses. But maybe only for the big names. For a vibrant music culture you can't imagine Chennai's December season, with the best part of 3000 concerts over a short timescale, would thrive if it did not have an audience. Outside the big cities, and outside the prestige annual events, it may be a totally different kettle of fish. I have the gut feeling you're right in saying that there is more of an uphill battle in Pakistan promoting classical music, but wouldn't like to guess the cause.
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"

I don't have an account on Facebook, and I'm a bit reticent at doing so (I can't help but associate it with a younger crowd, catering to more youthful social needs that have long receded into my past! But perhaps I am wrong?)

Pascal
I'm in my midsixties. Absolutely, FB's for us younger generation! lol

I don't feel it's my place to comment on ICM in India or Pakistan, as anything I said would only be anecdotal, based on my own experience and the (differing) views that are expressed to me when I'm there.

But certainly if you look at the major festivals, like Saptak, DLMC you see full houses. But maybe only for the big names. For a vibrant music culture you can't imagine Chennai's December season, with the best part of 3000 concerts over a short timescale, would thrive if it did not have an audience. Outside the big cities, and outside the prestige annual events, it may be a totally different kettle of fish. I have the gut feeling you're right in saying that there is more of an uphill battle in Pakistan promoting classical music, but wouldn't like to guess the cause.
3000 concerts!!? that's absolutely mind boggling! What a cornucopia of music!

Meanwhile, here's the article I was referencing:
Quote:
Our dying arts and culture, an Ustaad’s lament
lahore The classical arts of the subcontinent are not finding an audience in Pakistan, according to Ustaad Shafqat Ali Khan, son of the famed classical singer Salamat Ali Khan
file:///E:/Users/bercker/Documents/Daily%20Times%20-%20Leading%20News%20Resource%20of%20Pakistan%20-%20Our%20dying%20arts%20and%20culture,%20an%20Ustaad%E2%80%99s%20lament.htm
This is an old article as it goes back to 2004. But this sentiment was again echoed in the more recent article I posted. Perhaps this one reason (among others) that LMF was recently started.

I myself have NO personal experience of what ICM is like in either Pakistan or India as I have not had the pleasure of being able to visit either country (though I very much desire to) and therefore rely on what I read hither and yon (my professional training is in philosophy, with emphasis on critical thinking, logic and philosophy of science, so I am somewhat mindful of the difference between facts vs. opinion).

I would not be so quick to dismiss the value of your personal experience, and if I may, let me offer a small aside on the distinction between personal experience and anecdotal evidence:

I shall not belabor the point in a forum not directly designed for this particular point, but it is well worth noticing that that "personal experience" and "anecdotal evidence" need not be the same thing, though the distinction between the two can sometimes be a bit blurry. Anecdotal evidence cannot be relied upon precisely because it's ultimate provenance is typically unknown and therefore it's reliability as objective evidence is an open question. But personal experience is another matter. Where you to say "I've heard that concerts there are well attended", that would be a kind of anecdotal evidence since we simply have no way of knowing or assessing the reliability of what you have heard since it's impossible to document the alleged evidence. However, were you to say "The concerts that I have attended are well attended" that would be a report of a direct experience, and could be indirectly assessed by assessing how reliable and credible you are as a reported of said events. It might still be faulty evidence for other reasons; for example the number of concerts might be too small and so not representative of the typical concerts, and so on. But the main point is that generally speaking anecdotal evidence is of little evidentiary value, but personal experience is on a much better footing and cannot be immediately dismissed out of hand and can serve as a valuable starting point.


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
ragamala

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,740
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
I would not be so quick to dismiss the value of your personal experience, and if I may, let me offer a small aside on the distinction between personal experience and anecdotal evidence:

I shall not belabor the point in a forum not directly designed for this particular point, but it is well worth noticing that that "personal experience" and "anecdotal evidence" need not be the same thing, though the distinction between the two can sometimes be a bit blurry.
Pascal
I would hesitate to debate with a philosopher. But. If I said my evidence was anecdotal, within the context of a discussion this might be anecdotal subsequently for you, although it was personal for me, even if veiled my mismemory. Certainly what my friends say to me becomes more remote and certainly anecdotal. So I think when I said "as anything I said would only be anecdotal" if I were meaning by this as evidence for you, would that not be correct?
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ragamala"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
I would not be so quick to dismiss the value of your personal experience, and if I may, let me offer a small aside on the distinction between personal experience and anecdotal evidence:

I shall not belabor the point in a forum not directly designed for this particular point, but it is well worth noticing that that "personal experience" and "anecdotal evidence" need not be the same thing, though the distinction between the two can sometimes be a bit blurry.
Pascal
I would hesitate to debate with a philosopher. But. If I said my evidence was anecdotal, within the context of a discussion this might be anecdotal subsequently for you, although it was personal for me, even if veiled my mismemory. Certainly what my friends say to me becomes more remote and certainly anecdotal. So I think when I said "as anything I said would only be anecdotal" if I were meaning by this as evidence for you, would that not be correct?
That's an excellent point to make! Certainly, if you hear from friends that recent concerts they attended was well attended, you are in a good position to assess the reliability of what they say in part by knowing how reliable your friends are. But when communicated to me (as when you might say "I hear that..."), it becomes hearsay evidence whose reliability is unknown to me since I am in no position to assess the reliability of your friends. So you are quite right to say that what may well be somewhat reliable evidence for you becomes less reliable anecdotal evidence when related to me. This is related to the well known phenomena that stories, however true in the beginning, become less and less reliable as they get told and retold through a successive line of story tellers, and it frequently occurs that what started as a simple statement of facts becomes a fantastical story (and if I may, ICM has its share of legendary musical stories from the hoary past involving musical feats that may well be too fantastical to believe however charming they may be!)

Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
Bhuvanesh

Registered:
Posts: 21
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
This is sadly not the first article that I have recently read to the effect that classical music in Pakistan is in trouble (In an article I can no longer locate Shaqat Ali Khan bemoaned the fact that classically trained musicians have a very hard time making a living in Pakistan).
Quote:
One often gets the sense that classical music is breathing its last in Pakistan, the death throes so painful that one prays against one’s will for its quick demise. The thought of efforts aimed at its revival evoke dread rather than hope. Why not let it rest in peace? After all, the death of classical music in Pakistan will not be the death of classical music. It is alive and well in India and flourishing in the West. Even if it were not, there is now a storehouse of exquisite recordings that are infinitely more pleasurable compared to the indignities music has to endure at live performances in Pakistan.
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/classical-music-in-pakistan-a-requiem/

I'm curious as to what insight others might have about this.

Pascal
Classical music has always had a harder time in Pakistan, as evidenced by Bade Ghulam's move to India in the 50s. Perhaps because of economic and political problems? They do, however, have a few festivals such as the All Pakistan Music Conference (APMC).
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Bhuvanesh"

Classical music has always had a harder time in Pakistan, as evidenced by Bade Ghulam's move to India in the 50s. Perhaps because of economic and political problems? They do, however, have a few festivals such as the All Pakistan Music Conference (APMC).
While familiar with the name, I know very little about Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. Happily, wikipedia has an entry about him. Something of interest I read there is the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "wikipedia"
After the partition of India in 1947, Khan went to his home in Pakistan, but returned to India later to reside permanently. He did not approve of the partition, stating: "If in every home one child was taught Hindustani classical music this country would never have been partitioned." In 1957, with the help of Bombay chief minister Morarji Desai, he acquired Indian citizenship and moved to a government-provided bungalow at Malabar Hill. He lived at various times in Lahore, Bombay, Calcutta, and Hyderabad.
An interesting and touching sentiment that is frequently echoed in some variation of one kind or another in the comment section of many youtube videos of pakistani singers (Shujat Ali Khan for example) that have an appreciative Indian audience who frequently voice the hope that through music somehow, Pakistan and India will be reunited one day.

Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.