panchamkauns
talasiga wrote:
Now for a performance to be acceptable in any culture the following three must all be met
1)         the satisfaction of the performer
2)         the satisfaction of the audience
3)         the coalescence of those satisfactions with standards and expectations in a tradition.
Is number three really neccessary? If the musician and the listeners are all satisfied, who is going to raise objections about tradition?
We are 3
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martin spaink
Thanks Bruce and Jeff for your both sensible and considerately phrased remarks!
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ragamala
Jeff wrote:
I'm a little disturbed by sweeping pronouncements on the sarangi and harmonium like "fast taans don't sound good on the sarangi" and the obvious dismissive criticisms of the harmonium's pitch. I have listened to fast taans from say Bundu Khan and Ramnarain which were absolutely exquisite.
I agree on this much, especially on sarangi - Bundu Khan was a master musician who made any playing at any speed on sarangi appear effortless. And this despite the fact that (contrary to some inclination in these forums) he would play apparently with complete disregard to broken sympathetics, etc etc, eschewing perfection in the instrument itself.

And Ram Narayan is I think generally underrated. Partly because - obviously I am relating from my own history and to my own perception here - his older recordings can seem somewhat dry and technical. They don't grab you. But his later full-length cd recordings give a glimpse of just how exhilarating his music can be in live concerts.

Incredibly fast, incredibly accurate, and so musical, an aspect which doesn't necessarily come across in listening to recordings.

Give me one Ram Narayan for ten Sultan Khans, in comparison imho a very flawed musician. And you just have to listen to a bunch of Bundu Khan recordings to appreciate what a joy he felt in music-making.

The fear is that on sarangi the likes of Bundu Khan and Ram Narayan may not be seen again.

But of course artists like this were not really designed to play second fiddle.... Nor should they have to .

Supporters of harmonium can argue their own case...
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Jeff Whittier
It occured to me after my last posting that what is essentially a Western musicological approach to the microtones - seeing them as mathematical intervals and analysizing them apart from the rags they exist in - is roughly like "CSI-Sangeet," an autopsy if not outright vivisection. The music is a living thing, and no autopsy is going to reveal its life, no matter how many facts you list. The notes have different shadings of pitch because they express different feelings - go back to the derivation of the words "komal" and "tivra" which are "tender" or "soft," and "strong" respectively. On a few occasions, an FOB NRI student of mine has said something like, "How did you play that tender Ga?"

As for sarangi, I studied for one summer with Ramnarain and I still use the ideas he gave me for taans in every performance. Anyone who wants to learn to play good taans should definitely get the Neil Sorrell book. I heard his daughter live for the first time in the Jain Temple in Milpitas a couple of months ago and it was very good. I happen to like Dhruv Ghosh's playing a lot too, as long as I'm on the subject of younger sarangi players. Once Leslie & I heard at the last minute that Sabri Khan was giving a house concert in Fremont. It happened to be the same night as my son's Fremont tabla lesson, so we went right after the lesson and sat in the front. I remember that my son who was little at the time fell asleep in my lap. We were the only non-Indians in a group of about 50 people. Sabri Khan played magnificently, and performed a truly masterful Pilu. At the intermission, they passed the hat and Leslie and I put in $15, which back in the day was a decent sum. I found out later that from the entire room of people, they raised $75, which meant that about 47 Indians chipped in a total of $60. If you want to know why sarangi is dying, you got it right there.

I was listening to Bismillah Khan last night just as I went to sleep. The shehnai is really way out-of-tune. I thought to myself, it's funny that no one on the forum mentioned that. The shenai is just as out-of-tune as the harmonium, and sometimes more so. However, when you're listening to Bismillah, who cares? It is precisely the feelings which he expresses which capture your imagination and heart and take you off to some other realm.
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tuningmeister
Bruce wrote:
Going back to the original post, I don’t think Jairazbhoy “demolished” the concept of the 22 srutis. He graphed some recordings and found that the performers were not 100% consistent with their Gas and Pas, etc. We see the same thing with the graph of the singer on the tuningmeister website. I would say this falls in the category of “no one is perfect” rather than “the srutis are just mysticism”.
In my experience, the srutis are an integral part of the music. It’s the kind of thing you have to learn first hand from a teacher who knows his stuff. What would Sri Rag be without that particular komal re? How is that re different from the komal re in Bhairav or the komal re in Marwa? How is the komal ga in Bilashkani Todi different from the one in Bhairavi or Kafi? The chari ni in Megh? The chari Dha in Desi Todi? These things are not just a matter of the whim of the artist. But yes, they are like “blue notes” in that the only way you can play them correctly is by getting the feeling.
Khansahib has regularly demonstrated the srutis to us on his sarode (he delineates 23 ½). I’m sure that different gharanas will have different interpretations of the srutis – just as they do of the ragas. But let’s not be so quick to dismiss it all.


It is not fair to lift a partial quote and undo my meaning. While I do think that I could have phrased this a whole lot better, "Nazir Jairazbhoy (followed by his students) demolished this idea, at least as far as reflected in today's performances" means that the actual state (in general) of performance today does not generally reflect the theoretical ideas of 22 shrutis. It doesn't mean that 22 shrutis aren't possible; and I certainly have some instances of people who can render some microtonal differences.

Recently Aashish Khan said to me that "I am very interested in the microtones". He felt that his father and grandfather had emphasized these subtleties but most younger performers today were not much interested in them.

Arun Dravid kindly recorded for me some short alaps that I could use to make some screen clip videos, to demonstrate the software in action without having to download it. (I haven't gotten around to that yet). His ga in Todi is clearly lower than his ga in Malkauns, and pretty consistent. So certainly some performers can do it, but I have also observed many more who do not. That was my point - that the ideas of 22 shrutis are not for the most part achieved in actuality. That some do indicates the possibility is certainly there - so shouldn't we strive for it?
I do believe we will find string players will achieve the most accuracy.


I'm just back from a short vacation trip and have myriad things to catch up with in my garden etc., but perhaps in the coming weeks I can scan my CDs of the ragas mentioned and offer some observations. But better, perhaps people can offer links to some recordings online so that we can all listen to the same renderings, and compare what really happens with those particular notes. If people can offer examples where the subtle pitch differences are actually well performed, so much the better.
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Jeff Whittier
I think Nazir Jairazbhoy and all who have followed down the path of defining the shrutis as fixed intervals have hardly demolished the concept of shrutis, they have instead completely misunderstood the concept from the beginning. The test results which show there are a lot of values for specific notes confirm the systems of the gharanas, and do not refute them. When the musicians of days gone by used the concepts of say, komal and ati-komal, they meant "flat" and "flatter" and were not referring to some mathematically defined interval. The concept of "ati-komal" was used to indicate a note which was flatter than the normal komal note, and did not refer to some fixed interval. The old musicians were fully aware that the ati-komal note in one rag was not identical to the ati-komal note in another rag, and never meant for the two to be equated - the notes were "altered' to express the feelings in each rag.

The ati-komal Rishab in Marwa is exactly like that - it is the "Ga" of "Dha", and the "Ga" of the higher shruti of "Dha" in fact. It is not the same as the ati-komal Rishab in say, Ahir Bhairav.

Or take Shuddh Rishab. It is generally understood that there are 2 Shuddh Rishab's - the one in say Kafi (higher) and Bageshwari (lower). The lower one is the "Dha" of "Ma". However, numerous musicians use at least another one. Sachdev taught me that the Re in Bhimpalasi is lower than the one in Kafi, but not as low as the one in Bageshwari. Similarly, ZM Dagar taught that there was another Re in use in Yaman, not as high as Kafi, but not as low as Bageshwari. That does not mean that those 2 notes are the same either - I maintain you can't really discuss the notes outside of the rag and the gharana in which they occur.

The shrutis were never intended to be fixed mathematical intervals, but were shadings of the 12 notes which embodied different feelings. The idea that they should be examined as mathematical intervals is a product of Western education, whether espoused by Indians or Westerners. It is not relevant to the actual performance of the rags. For instance, not all ati-komal Rishabs were ever intended to be the same, each one expresses the feeling inherent in the rag in which it lives.
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tuningmeister
Jeff wrote:
...
I was listening to Bismillah Khan last night just as I went to sleep. The shehnai is really way out-of-tune. I thought to myself, it's funny that no one on the forum mentioned that. The shenai is just as out-of-tune as the harmonium, and sometimes more so. However, when you're listening to Bismillah, who cares? It is precisely the feelings which he expresses which capture your imagination and heart and take you off to some other realm.

So do other forum members agree that they find the shenai often out-of-tune, or not?

if so, can you tell us what notes you found especially off?

If we can forget the out-of-tuneness in listening to a great musician (and I agree that we usually do), then what is the point of all the business about many different kinds of e.g. ati-komal Re in Jeff's next post? We have to reconcile these two opposing experiences somehow. Might we say that Bismillah's expression would be even greater if he mastered those subtle shrutis without losing his inate musicality? (Certainly one can spend too much effort on tuning to the point where the music lacks life). Can't we reach a stage where the subtleties of tuning are as much a part of the spontaneous expression as other aspects of performance?
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jaan e kharabat
I was wondering the same thing. Is Jeff saying that the shehnai is an inherently out-of-tune instrument or that Bismillah Khan's intonation is unusual?

If it's the instrument, is he implying that for example one cannot play a perfect 5th, perfect 4th, perfect 3rd etc on it, or what exactly?
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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Jeff Whittier
I'm saying the instrument is inherently out-of-tune, even more so than the harmonium. Just ask any shehnai player how hard it is to bend the notes into relatively good intonation.

I've been making bansuris for 40 years now. I've made more than 40,000 - which means I've tuned more than 40,000. When I listen to a wind instument, I listen to how it's tuned.
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beenkar
There is another discussion on it -

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=39336257&tid=2588974213419021402
रंग भरयौ मुसकात लला निकस्यौ कल कुंजन ते सुखदाई
टूटि गयो घर को सब बंधन छूटि गौ आरज- लाज- बड़ाई
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ragamala
beenkar wrote:
There is another discussion on it -
Dear Beenkar

This is less a discussion of principles of intonation than the tuning program to 22 shrutis "based upon just intonation" which you promote but even you yourself do not claim to represent musical reality.

So I am puzzled what point you are trying to make here? Can you please explain?
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beenkar
In my view:

1. The 22 srutis are very much perceptible as well as quantifiable. The 22 Sruti tuner software demonstrates that.
2. The 22 srutis theory is certainly "useful" in capturing the manner we differentiate the Swaras of different Ragas that use 'same' swaras e.g. Re and Ga of Yaman and Bilawal , Komal Re of Bhairav and Shree etc.It is like the theory of fourier transformation being a useful theory to capture wave forms in all approximations.
3. There are more than 22 srutis that get used in actual performance because "Swara" (contrary to srutis as fixed frequency of sounds) is NOT one frequency note but a range of frequencies that encompasses one or more srutis. That is how one uses the Swaras - not as a fixed one frequency sound played by one black or white key on the keyboard but say - as a 'andolit' note that encompasses a range of frequencies.
4. That is why in Dhrupad one uses a lahak-dar approach towards singing the Swaras that encompasses "range of frequencies" and NOT singing one fixed note.
रंग भरयौ मुसकात लला निकस्यौ कल कुंजन ते सुखदाई
टूटि गयो घर को सब बंधन छूटि गौ आरज- लाज- बड़ाई
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jaan e kharabat
Jeff wrote:
I'm saying the instrument is inherently out-of-tune, even more so than the harmonium. Just ask any shehnai player how hard it is to bend the notes into relatively good intonation.
Be that as it may, but how good is this jugalbandi between Bismillah and Latafat? It's how it should be and the music is sublime. They don't play and sing like this anymore:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/1fb749f7-3d99-453a-9c3d-304a06a2bfbb/Ust.-Latafat-Hussain-Khan--Ust.-Bismillah-Khan---Raag-Kamod

http://www.esnips.com/doc/a60ae82c-5e9f-48b0-9ecf-c9924b59ca18/Ust.-Latafat-Hussain-Khan--Ust.-Bismillah-Khan---Raag-Malkauns
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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ragamala
beenkar wrote:
In my view:
Thank you for that, that sounds a very practical summary.
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talasiga
I would like to take delight in this opportunity to reiterate my earlier points in this and the dhrupad topic by quoting the recent eloquence of others:-
Bruce wrote:
.......I would say this falls in the category of “no one is perfect” rather than “the srutis are just mysticism”.
In my experience, the srutis are an integral part of the music. It’s the kind of thing you have to learn first hand from a teacher who knows his stuff. What would Sri Rag be without that particular komal re? How is that re different from the komal re in Bhairav or the komal re in Marwa?
.........
These things are not just a matter of the whim of the artist. But yes, they are like “blue notes” in that the only way you can play them correctly is by getting the feeling.
Khansahib has regularly demonstrated the srutis to us on his sarode (he delineates 23 ½). I’m sure that different gharanas will have different interpretations of the srutis – just as they do of the ragas. But let’s not be so quick to dismiss it all.
AND
Jeff wrote:
.......It seems to me a lot of this discussion is grafting on to Indian music concepts which are essentially Western and not relevant. A rag is not a scale, and there are even rags which have the same scale, such as Surdasi Malhar and Samanta Sarang. What distinguishes rags is the colors expressed in each note, and these feeling translate in suble shades of pitch as well. People take some concept like "22 shrutis" (I've heard 24, but who's counting) and go off on a roll with it to places it was never meant to go. One time I asked Aashish, "Is the Re in Puriya the same shruti as the Re in Sohini?" And he said, "I don't know, let me check." He then got out his sarod, played both rags for a few minutes, and said, "Yes." The shrutis come out of the rags, they are not a classification system.

Ravi Shankar is on record as saying the vadi-samvadi system is not correct, as a rag is defined by its weak notes as much as by its strong notes - a note in its weakness makes the rag as much what it is as the feeling expressed in the strong notes. Reducing the feeling expressed in the notes to a western-cataloged series of mathematical intervals isn't relevant to Indian music, it does not reflect whatsoever what is going on within the music, and does not improve anyone's understanding of the music.

When the musician gets to the point where he (or she) can express the feelings latent in each rag, the pitches fall into place, assuming they have basic sur-skill. And, since these very feelings vary somewhat from gharana to gharana, it's no wonder that the pitches do too. For instance, the Dha in Marwa and Hindol is higher in pitch because it is so strong and expresses vira rasa. All these shrutis make perfect sense in context, it when they're taken out of context and made into some artificial musicological system by people who are essentially musicological dilettants that the trouble begins.
every flute harbours a muse
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martin spaink
Hi folks, I'm fresh back from Tuscany where I revisited the place where I lived some time ago. I used to do a lot of sarangi practice there in the evening as it was an isolated place, alone mostly in the evenings and nights and mornings. In between I went back to Amsterdam to tour as a tambura artist not to discontinue my contributions and the contact with some excellent musicians. I confess that my enthusiasm for any musican raises exponentionally the more they display and maintain (....etc), and integrate into their music high levels of tunefulness so that intonation-depending tonal qualities become both specific and meaningful for a particular raga (...etc) . Of course, as the basic sound comes from under my own fingers I'm being in the very middle of it right there where the tuning for tarabs for the various string-instruments is done after everyone is happy about how the tanpuras sound in relation to the Sa of the instrument (...etc) in function to the raga (...etc).
If I compare it to another bit of acquired practice of recent times, which is harpsichord tuning, it is discretely judging the relations between the different sounds that is used to create and define what you're after. Particular ways to go about it and memorize them have been in use since the instrument existed, along with gradual shifts in appreciation. Basically, the relevant Idea of this translates to the living tradition of ICM. While tuning tarabs, the musician is both forced to fix it down to a satisfying position not alone on its relation to Sa but also particular relations to other tones, seeking particular resonances. For these very facts, some objective way of comparison would be more than welcome. If a few of the tarabists here on the forum submitted some clips of tarabtuning and some chalans of one or two ragas we could at least compare their relative temperaments before looking at the intonation of the playing relative to pitches set in the tarabs. If something could be worked out with Tuning Meister that some meaningful comparison can be made public to the forum this would provide this discussion some solid footing.
Actually, I'm surprised that this possibility has not been taken up and used for what it can do.
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