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musikero

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Reply with quote  #31 
I love jazz
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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #32 

Here is a jazz standard/song  played by me on sitar 'Summertime' with piano, played in an Indo-Jazz fusion style.

I have not heard anyone play like this before so I trust this is some ground-breaking.

Enjoy and regards.

Sanjeeb Sircar

http://www.sanjeebsircar.com/

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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #33 
Beautiful blues sound, Sanjeeb, thanks!
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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barron Singh
Simply because Jazz is NOT based on Western Classical dioms...it merely uses orchestral instruments, albeit in a way completely unintended by say, Adolph Sax, who wished his instruments to be taken "seriously" as a standardized orchestral media.


This is incorrect. Jazz harmony has derived from western classical music in every era. The practice of improvising on chord changes at the core of jazz also derives from western classical. The Africanisms in jazz are reflected in the melodic use of blue notes, but the harmony comes straight from classical.
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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #35 
Yes I would agree geezerjazz.
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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerjazz


This is incorrect. Jazz harmony has derived from western classical music in every era. The practice of improvising on chord changes at the core of jazz also derives from western classical. The Africanisms in jazz are reflected in the melodic use of blue notes, but the harmony comes straight from classical.
 Not exactly. Just like blues is the co-production of two musical cultures - European and African, respectively,  harmony in jazz also unites elements of both musical traditions. This is precisely what academic musicians didn't  understand in the early period of the formation of jazz; for them it was nothing more than production of amateurs, based on simple borrowing of chords from the classics. Jazz harmony contains the features  characteristic of the African plurivocality: parallelisms and heterophony;  the characteristic harmonic movement V - IV ,associated with pentatonic  ; chords, actually extracted from pentatonic, like maj/min 6/9, sus2, sus4, 7sus2, 7sus4; and harmonic prorgressions at the steps of pentatonic scale, such as C7-Eb7-F7-G7 / # 9.
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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzman1945
 Not exactly. Just like blues is the co-production of two musical cultures - European and African, respectively,  harmony in jazz also unites elements of both musical traditions. This is precisely what academic musicians didn't  understand in the early period of the formation of jazz; for them it was nothing more than production of amateurs, based on simple borrowing of chords from the classics. Jazz harmony contains the features  characteristic of the African plurivocality: parallelisms and heterophony;  the characteristic harmonic movement V - IV ,associated with pentatonic  ; chords, actually extracted from pentatonic, like maj/min 6/9, sus2, sus4, 7sus2, 7sus4; and harmonic prorgressions at the steps of pentatonic scale, such as C7-Eb7-F7-G7 / # 9.


It seems a stretch to me to attribute jazz harmonies to African music for several reasons. First, the majority of those harmonies simply do not exist in African music. Second, it is an easy matter to find the predecessors of nearly all mainstream jazz harmonies in concert music, before they make their way into jazz.
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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerjazz


It seems a stretch to me to attribute jazz harmonies to African music for several reasons. First, the majority of those harmonies simply do not exist in African music.
Quite the contrary - African harmonies to jazz.


Quote:
Second, it is an easy matter to find the predecessors of nearly all mainstream jazz harmonies in concert music, before they make their way into jazz.
 Where can you hear such rhythms and harmonies from Tchaikovsky or Brahms?


This view of jazz harmony is hopelessly outdated; already for several decades, the harmony of jazz is highlighted in a separate class , in contrast to, for example, the harmony of waltz.

BTW, jazz harmony is my profession.



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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #39 

Jazzman1945,

Yes I see.

and also

 On second thought I tend to concur with you,  ...Quote  "Just like blues is the co-production of two musical cultures - European and African, respectively,  harmony in jazz also unites elements of both musical traditions. This is precisely what academic musicians didn't  understand in the early period of the formation of jazz; for them it was nothing more than production of amateurs, based on simple borrowing of chords from the classics. Jazz harmony contains the features  characteristic of the African plurivocality: parallelisms and heterophony;  the characteristic harmonic movement V - IV ,associated with pentatonic  ; chords, actually extracted from pentatonic, like maj/min 6/9, sus2, sus4, 7sus2, 7sus4; and harmonic prorgressions at the steps of pentatonic scale, such as C7-Eb7-F7-G7 / # 9." Unquote.

Thanks.
Sanjeeb. 

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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #40 

And yet I decided to go over the Internet, to understand - where does this information come about the sources of jazz harmony from , which has nothing to do with African culture, but is only related to classical music. This thesis was good for 1925; but today there is a little more information [wink]
Yes, indeed, I found a number of pop articles stating that the girls are going to the right, the boys to the left, the rhythm in jazz comes from Africa, but the harmony is from Europe. These are bored bloggers who write off one from another; but doesn't for this the teacher at school wrote "unsatisfactory"?
For our health, we will not look for a blogger writing about medicine, but a specialist doctor. In this case, a specialist is an ethnomusicologist; and I advise everyone to get acquainted with the works of Percival Kirby - A Study of Negro Harmony , Gerhard Kubik - The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices , Simha Arom - African Polyphony and Polyrhythm .

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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzman1945
Quite the contrary - African harmonies to jazz.

 Where can you hear such rhythms and harmonies from Tchaikovsky or Brahms?



Not sure I follow your first sentence. Are you arguing that jazz harmonies begin in Africa and then influenced jazz musicians in the US? That seems far-fetched for a variety of reasons. You would first need to show that said harmonies actually exist in Africa, and then show temporal priority and a transmission mechanism.

In response to your second sentence, I'm not sure which harmonies you're referring to, or why you would limit your sources to those two composers. The common jazz harmonies of the mid-20th century can be easily traced back to the Impressionist composers--Debussy, Ravel, Delius, etc. In the 1950s and 60s you can begin to hear the influence of Copland, Walton, Milhaud, etc.

Temporal precedence is easy to demonstrate, as is the transmission mechanism. Advanced jazz harmony begins with big band arrangers and filters down through pianists into the common repertoire. These arrangers were highly literate musicians and well aware of the published literature. I am speaking of the mainstream mid-20th century jazz tradition.
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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #42 
Things are not so simple as it seems at first glance.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?308201-Does-jazz-harmony-have-African-roots
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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzman1945
Things are not so simple as it seems at first glance.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?308201-Does-jazz-harmony-have-African-roots

Thanks for the link. We can continue the conversation over there, where it is more on topic.
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Barron Singh

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerjazz


It seems a stretch to me to attribute jazz harmonies to African music for several reasons. First, the majority of those harmonies simply do not exist in African music. Second, it is an easy matter to find the predecessors of nearly all mainstream jazz harmonies in concert music, before they make their way into jazz.


Because once you devote yourself to actually examining African music you will learn that the origin of the bowed instruments is African( Masinko), that chamber music and it’s harmonies are African (Ziryab), and that thw development of improvised melodies over harmonies isban extension of the Tasqism in Baroque Music, whose etymology is an afro-asiatic word (Barack, meaning Lightning or quick thinking or enlightenment).

I don’t expect you to do anything other than cling to your predisposed suppositions. It is enough to simply state the facts. I’m not here to convince those who were taught to believe otherwise by the ill equipped academic sources of the past century which we know now to be tainted by inherent bias.
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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #45 
Although the word Harmony has a Greek-Roman origin, this phenomenon is more acoustic than cultural. European classical harmony originated under the influence of the development of keyboard instruments, treating polyphony in quality as snapshots. This view was imported into Africa during colonialism, but it was primarily concerned with the tradition of heterophonic singing, which existed many years before.
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