INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Register Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 3      Prev   1   2   3   Next
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #16 
Thank you, Sanjeeb, for your videos - you taught me a lesson! Now I understand how the Hindu perceives the ICM performing  on the piano, it sounds very unusual, and at times it's strange. But still interesting!
I have more audio than video. This ensemble performed at the Newport Jazz Festival in 1974.



And this is my children's ethno fusion  ensemble ; here I play just on the saxophone instead of keyboard.




From festival Jerusalem Nights :


0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #17 

There are a number of musical properties that pose ICM and classical jazz at a great distance from each other:
Timbre
Rhythmic patterns
Scales
Absence of tonal harmony and chords
 
These differences are on the surface, and are captured immediately; However, there are other differences, more hidden:
Sound production
Articulation
Groove
Melodic thinking

These qualities are associated primarily with the native language of the performers and its differences from other languages. The language base of jazz, as well as its main root Blues - English in its Afro-American version; language basics in India - you know better than me - a whole bunch of languages.The basis of music is singing, which dictates the part of  traditions of instrumental performance; and here we can see the huge distance between the two musical cultures  (I'm not even talking about the philosophical side of music).  




0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #18 
Traditional jazz, swing and bebop categorically do not accept elements of Indian music - both rhythmically and melodically. The emergence of modal jazz and the abandonment of the classic 4/4 swing resolutely opened up this opportunity. The first example in jazz containing this potency isn't Kind of Blue  the type of blue, but "Sketches of Spain", although Miles Davis plays both of them. 
A separate issue is harmony: the new modality of the 20th century introduced the principle of the unity of the musical horizontal and vertical, which allows a new  harmonic approaches to non-European music.
0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #19 
Combinations of melody pitches , sounding of strings, drone sound and  constant sound of tabla inevitably creates something , which can be confidently  called chords. From the point of view of jazz  it is possible to approach to this from two sides:

 Variable bass, but not walking (Zakir Hussain does it fantastically on tabla);

 Selection of pitches from thaat to create chords , containing  in themselves some degree of saturation, density and dissonance.
0
Sanjeeb

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 376
Reply with quote  #20 

Hello Jazzman1945.  Just saw your response.

Heard your videos.  Nice. Reminded me of  'Chick Corea' and 'Weather Report' also.

You must be an elderly musician having played back in 1974 at the New Port Jazz Festival. 

Here is something from me you might want to check out also.

This was recorded about 22 years ago

Funky Sitar Blues Fusion: 'Dig The Catch' Sitar, composition and production: Sanjeeb Sircar, Keyboards: Alex Fernandez, Guitar: The Late Ian Caszio.

Regards

Sanjeeb 
http://www.sanjeebsircar.com

0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #21 

Precisely here I want to use elements of Indian music (from 2:20)




0
Sanjeeb

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 376
Reply with quote  #22 

Heard and saw this. Is it you on the Keyboards ?

Yes at 2:20 there are some elements of Indian Music which come into play.

The melody is familiar. Is it 'Afternoon of a Faun' by Debussy.

0
Sanjeeb

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 376
Reply with quote  #23 

Here is something original you might like from me, recorded the other day, I have not heard being done before, 'Blue Moon' a popular old song which became a well known Jazz-standard, on Sitar from me with a friend on piano. A short excerpt from an informal, impromptu session. 

Hope to make a better version of this later.

Cheers !

Sanjeeb.

http://www.sanjeebsircar.com

0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjeeb

The melody is familiar. Is it 'Afternoon of a Faun' by Debussy.

 

Yes, it's based on Debussy's prelude "The Girl with the Flaxen Hair" as part of a whole Debussy's preludes jazz rock project.  Here is the original studio recording in 1975 (I'm not playing here keyboard, but my wife performs  the vocal part ).   



 

Quote:

Heard and saw this. Is it you on the Keyboards ?

Yes at 2:20 there are some elements of Indian Music which come into play.


 Yes, I'm on keyboard ; the flute player  - pupil of  reed player  from audio . I'm sure that in my solo I played just  fantasy on Indian music; but now, I hope, I'll learn a little deeper the authentic phrasing.


Your "Blue Moon" sounds nice, and I would like a slightly different accompaniment that matches your groove and ornamentation .

 

0
Sanjeeb

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 376
Reply with quote  #25 

Thanks

Nice memory and feel of yester-years.

Quote

"Your "
Blue Moon" sounds nice, and I would like a slightly different accompaniment that matches your groove and ornamentation."

End of Quote.

Wish I could know here what you meant but I woulds leave that to imagination ! 

 

Here is another longer version of the same recording 'Blue Moon' with a sitar solo included.

I have re-edited the video and put the part I took with another camera. (now with two cameras). 
Might be eventually taking down the previous version.

You might like this a little more maybe I hope: 



Regards
Sanjeeb.

http://www.sanjeebsircar.com

0
Sanjeeb

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 376
Reply with quote  #26 

Another excerpt of a rough impromptu home recording of mine playing sitar with two friends on Guitar you might like to check out.

Managed to get in some good licks and runs. Not Jazz though.




Cheers Sanjeeb

0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #27 
Thanks for the video, Sanjeeb! I always like to see an alternative approach to improvisation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjeeb
 Wish I could know here what you meant but I woulds leave that to imagination ! 
 It seems to me that there is a distance between your groove 12/8, and a walking bass of 4/4 in the comp . From here, the change of groove pulls a change of harmony; in part A I would choose two pentatonic chords: one bar D6 / 2, the other G7maj7 /A.  Longer chords blend well with the characteristic sustain sound  of sitar.


0
Barron Singh

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzman1945
Yes, I thought to open such a topic; but since it already exists, although it ceased 11 years ago, I decided to join; and as a jazz professional pianist to present some specific points.
The first question to ask: why do jazz musicians like the ICM, and for example classical musicians - basically  not (I was there and the main tastes are not secret)? I don't have statistics, so I will speak for myself.
  It is clear that the presence of improvisation in  the process of musical development is very appealing to jazzers ; but in the world there is a huge variety of musical cultures, where improvisation also takes place; and yet were not interested in them  in either the 50's, 60's, or 70's (today the situation has changed a lot). Exotic musical  cultures that influenced jazz were African,  Arabic, Spanish - where there is a large contribution of Roma musicians who themselves originate from India and actually Indian.

The first thing that attracted me first was instrumental music and groove, but when I listened to the singing, I felt something in tune with blues - in a   sounding, not in  spirit. This contains intonation not blues and jazz something else; but I felt that they could be included in the vocabulary of modal improvisation. These intonations deeply penetrated me , and I want to give them a way out. 


Simply because Jazz is NOT based on Western Classical dioms...it merely uses orchestral instruments, albeit in a way completely unintended by say, Adolph Sax, who wished his instruments to be taken "seriously" as a standardized orchestral media.

Furthermore, the African roots of Jazz are also absolutely rooted in pre-colonial India, from the tribal Mohenjo-Daro rhythmic and vocal traditions to the Mughal influences that came down through the Silk Road, along with Black Muslim rulers and African court musicians. A phenomenon recorded from Egypt to Córdoba.

And one cannot deny the impact of the Siddi Sufis of Gujarat and the correlated Abyssinian trade in India which further reinforced it's more African elements and parallel so called "tribal" cultural developments, largely ignored or destroyed by colonization.

We cannot conflate the "Classicism" of Indian Classical Music with the development of Westen Classical Music in Austria, despite the culturally destructive trend of India's British invaders to do so as an effort to literally own the efforts and contributions of Indian artists.

ICM owes its development to it's tribal beginnings, and has more in common with the development of Spanish Classical Music birthed by the Moorish inventions of Ziryab, and is parallel to American Classical Music defined by the likes of Charles Mingus and John Coltrane.

-B.Singh
0
Barron Singh

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trippy monkey
Hi Sitaroman1 As Raviji says Jazz is very different from ICM & he should know as his earliest fans were jazz players in the 50s. You might as well say Chinese music is like ICM.I have quite a few fusion vinyls from the 60s & while the Indian musicians keep within the framework of the raga or ragas generally, the jazz musos are running up & down any scales they like. Though this is not necessarily unattractive.My favs are the mid/late 60s Indo-Jazz Fusions group from the UK with the late Joe Harriot on trumpet? as well as other Brit jazz musos with John Mayer pulling it all together. Diwan Motihar on sitar & Keshav Sathe, at some points, on tabla.I could make a list of the ones I have if you like.Nick


In all due respect, Pandit Ravi Shankar got a lot of things wrong in his recorded reflections on both American and Indian music. He famously said in an interview that a Westerner intuitively playing sitar would be like an Indian intuitively playing the violin (paraphrased), that neither would be expected. However many later scholars and musicians agree that the Classical Western violin most probably has it's origins in Sri Lanka and later, Rajasthan with the ravanahatha. While similar bowed instruments are possibly older (the zeze of Africa, for example), they were not necessarily used over such a long period of time with a developed repertoire. PRS was either blissfully ignorant or deliberately overlooked many such major details in his interviews. None of this takes away from his incredible accomplishments as a musician. But I would not lean on his scholarship in a debate.
0
jazzman1945

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barron Singh
Simply because Jazz is NOT based on Western Classical dioms...it merely uses orchestral instruments, albeit in a way completely unintended by say, Adolph Sax, who wished his instruments to be taken "seriously" as a standardized orchestral media. Furthermore, the African roots of Jazz are also absolutely rooted in pre-colonial India, from the tribal Mohenjo-Daro rhythmic and vocal traditions to the Mughal influences that came down through the Silk Road, along with Black Muslim rulers and African court musicians. A phenomenon recorded from Egypt to Córdoba. And one cannot deny the impact of the Siddi Sufis of Gujarat and the correlated Abyssinian trade in India which further reinforced it's more African elements and parallel so called "tribal" cultural developments, largely ignored or destroyed by colonization. We cannot conflate the "Classicism" of Indian Classical Music with the development of Westen Classical Music in Austria, despite the culturally destructive trend of India's British invaders to do so as an effort to literally own the efforts and contributions of Indian artists. ICM owes its development to it's tribal beginnings, and has more in common with the development of Spanish Classical Music birthed by the Moorish inventions of Ziryab, and is parallel to American Classical Music defined by the likes of Charles Mingus and John Coltrane. -B.Singh
     Thank you, Barron Singh, very interesting; I did not know anything from this. There were only suspicions,  when I met so many pentatonics; even a semitone above the tonic!  - just Coltrane!
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.