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theprosperone

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "povster"
I mentioned the reverb and I still maintain that the reverb, which is pretty apparent even in the more straight on pitches of that youtube clip, does play a role here.

I think it is mostly sustain of the instrument and ability of the player to keep the note alive when meending. Reverb would be minimal if it all, really reverb would really only enhance the tail end of the notes but here you can clearly hear the initial note clearly as you can hear/see it match with his meend movement. I was lucky enough to see Ustad Shahid Parvez in a very tiny room, playing through a PA system that wasn't up loud and had absolutely no reverb on. You could still here these ghostly whispers of meend during his alap perfectly. I agree with the harmonic explanation, you can get similar things happening with guitars that have a lot of sustain. The initial attack of the note has decayed and you're hearing a harmonic overtone and the continued resonance of the string without any of the initial attack. I do think that an open jawari is a key to helping get this sound and sustain. I think it may also help to have such strength and clarity in your mizrab attack and strength and fluidity in your fretting hand. A weak or uneasy hand on the frets can kill sustain just as easy as a poor jawari...
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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "nicneufeld"
I should also point out, The Howling Meends would be a good name for a band.


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CheesecakeTomek

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Reply with quote  #18 
Prosperone:
Thanks for clearing up about the reverb. Also agree 100% about the importance of strength of fingers on the frets (as well as a solid mizrab stroke). Interesting that you talk about a open jawari- when I tried this out in the morning it was my Hemen with a more open jawari that gave a hint of this effect, whereas my closed Hiren gave nothing. Could be that there Hiren still needs some work to get it to full potential.

Speaking of the Hiren TheActor:
I do not have a clip on hand. However, I would be happy to record something in the next week or so, once I get passed this busy weekend gets, Like I said, it still needs some work, however I do appreciate the sound in general, and do not want to open it up too much more.
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CheesecakeTomek

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "OM
Quote:
Originally Posted by "nicneufeld"
I should also point out, The Howling Meends would be a good name for a band.

Yes! Each time I have opened this thread I'm just like.... "howling meend" ... awesome.

Edit:
I guess you could say it really.......... resonates with me!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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povster

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "theprosperone"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "povster"
I mentioned the reverb and I still maintain that the reverb, which is pretty apparent even in the more straight on pitches of that youtube clip, does play a role here.

I think it is mostly sustain of the instrument and ability of the player to keep the note alive when meending. Reverb would be minimal if it all, really reverb would really only enhance the tail end of the notes but here you can clearly hear the initial note clearly as you can hear/see it match with his meend movement. I was lucky enough to see Ustad Shahid Parvez in a very tiny room, playing through a PA system that wasn't up loud and had absolutely no reverb on. You could still here these ghostly whispers of meend during his alap perfectly. I agree with the harmonic explanation, you can get similar things happening with guitars that have a lot of sustain. The initial attack of the note has decayed and you're hearing a harmonic overtone and the continued resonance of the string without any of the initial attack. I do think that an open jawari is a key to helping get this sound and sustain. I think it may also help to have such strength and clarity in your mizrab attack and strength and fluidity in your fretting hand. A weak or uneasy hand on the frets can kill sustain just as easy as a poor jawari...
I have played with (and rejected) reverb a lot in recording my own playing. As I initially said, "sustain combined with amplification and some reverb thrown in for good measure. The whole clip does have a reverb feel to it."

I still stand by that. ::shrug:: (in lieu of a shrug emoticon).

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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #21 
" ....I guess you could say it really.......... resonates with me!!!..."

Ah, there you go again, vacillating!

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barend

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Reply with quote  #22 
Good question topic starter! I have noticed this also long ago on some SP recordings. Really like those harmonic meends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "nicneufeld"
Those are harmonics
Yes it are harmonic overtones. It has nothing to do with reverb, ampflication or jawari like most of you mention. Although these factors can help sometimes to bring out these harmonics better this is not why these overtones happen.
It has to do with what tone you meend and with the speed of the meend. If you watch several clips of SP you will notice that these 'meend harmonics' only happen on certain notes.
Mostly around middle Ga and especially Ma. And Especially when pulled from the Sa or Re fret (so more tension on the string). There has to be a high speed in the oscillation otherwise it won't be heard. Try a meend on the Re fret to Ma and make a fast 'vibrato' on the Ma. Then when the note dies out (keep vibrating and sustaining the note) at the certain point you will hear the harmonic. It is not easy to do and difficult to control. Not many players do this. I only heard some good examples from SP.
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povster

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "barend"
It has to do with what tone you meend and with the speed of the meend. If you watch several clips of SP you will notice that these 'meend harmonics' only happen on certain notes.
Mostly around middle Ga and especially Ma. And Especially when pulled from the Sa or Re fret (so more tension on the string). There has to be a high speed in the oscillation otherwise it won't be heard..
Barend, an excellent explanation. Now it is making more sense to me.

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AllenDS

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Reply with quote  #24 
It is also worth pointing out that a good player with a lot of experience on a particular instrument will know how that instrument might react under the circumstances. Sometimes an instrument will create a pleasant harmonic overtone when amplified or when stroked in a certain way in a particular place on the string, and when this happens... just milking it for as long as possible is a sign of a player who can take advantage of sweet things when they occur.

I'm not saying this is what happened in this particular video, but I'm a big fan of the union of player + instrument + the present moment. Magic happens when all three things come together.

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CheesecakeTomek

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Reply with quote  #25 
Ok, as requested by TheActor, and of course open for anyone else to listen to, here is a short clip of me playing alap in Alaihya Bilawal on my Hiren Roy kharaj pancham sitar that has a closed jawari. Far from perfect, but this is why we practice Comments on my playing are welcome. This is the first time in a while that I have recorded myself, and I have forgotten how valuable it is.

The clip can be found here:

I will leave it up for a week and a half or so. I do use that profile to host recordings of my own compositions, so I would rather not have this mixed in with them for too long. You are all welcome to check those out as well, though I must warn that they are of a completely different nature

BTW- The bridge is delrin, fashioned by Tony K, and has not had a touch up post-installation, so it is obviously not working to its fullest potential at the moment. That being said, I do like where it is tone-wise, and when I do get the opportunity to get it serviced, I will start with just asking for small adjustments.

Allen-
Amen, brother. Recently I have been reflecting on how paramount it is to this music (and any other improvisatory music) to be able to recognize something as it is happening in the moment and react accordingly on the spot. What a hurdle!

Cheers,
Tomek
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