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zanshin777

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Reply with quote  #1 
As far as I know in prectical traditional indian music there are 23 pitches.

And there are 10 pairs of notes in it. (ri, ri; Ri, Ri; ga, ga; Ga, Ga; ma, ma; Ma, Ma, dha, dha; Dha, Dha; ni, ni; Ni, Ni) 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ai94maivkk382i2/Classical%20Indian%20Music%20Notes.PNG?dl=0

There are 10 practical thaats in traditional indian music. All of them have intervallic formulas.

Since there are 10 pairs of the same note (Their frequencies are different of course)


https://www.dropbox.com/s/bkwvg5cu58dop9o/Circle%20Of%20Thaats.png?dl=0


How would I know which note of a pair in a thaat is used?

For example in Bilaval thaat which Ga is used? There are two different Ga's.

Could you give me a resource including exact formulas of them?
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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777
As far as I know in prectical traditional indian music there are 23 pitches.

In fact there are probably many more than that in actual use. 

The 22-shruti theory is drawn from a tradition, and ancient theoretical writings, describing a style of music that went extinct many centuries ago, and moreover the original intent of those descriptions of 22 shrutis has long been misunderstood by most modern interpreters. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777
Since there are 10 pairs of the same note (Their frequencies are different of course) How would I know which note of a pair in a thaat is used?

Well, intonation is a highly contentious area in I.C.M., and in the last century when oscilloscopes and other scientific equipment was used to analyze Indian music, it was found, much to many people's surprise, that intonation in a rag varied, not only from one gharana to another, but from one artist to another, and even from one passage to another.  Similar studies, and similar discoveries, have been made of Persian and Middle-Eastern music as well. 

One could conclude that the legendary razor-fine intonation of the pandits and ustads is merely a myth, or, more likely, that music itself is more complex than the simple scales we've contrived to contain it. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777
Could you give me a resource including exact formulas of them?

Well there are a number of individuals who have come forth claiming to have arrived at just such systems.  They are generally mathematical approaches, created by individuals with some mathematical training but often with little musical knowledge or expertise. 

Not that mathematics is the wrong way to approach... anything, but those theorists each seems to believe that the mathematical beauty alone of his system is evidence of its accuracy, and none of their theories has, to my knowledge, ever been properly tested against the actual music. 

In practice, musicians of I.C.M. learn the intonation of their gharana through many years of repetitive listening and singing or playing under the supervision of a teacher.  Few participants in the process have any idea of the mathematical ratios involved.  It's all done by ear. 

David

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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #3 
Oh, wait a minute.  I think I've misunderstood your question. 

Your mention of 23 pitches made me think you were inquiring about microtonic tuning, but, re-reading, I think you merely want to know when a komal and when a shuddh version of a note is used.  Is that right? 

However there are several places online describing the thats in that detail, including Wikipedia. 

David
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zanshin777

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Reply with quote  #4 
I do not want to learn if a thaat include komal or shuddh swaras. I already know that. See the link including Circle Of Thaats. There it can be seen.

For example there are 4 type of Ri Swara in the two categories;

Shuddh Swara (Major Interval)

1) Ri of which freq. ratio is 10/9
2) Ri of which freq. ratio is 9/8


Komal Swara (Minor Interval)

3) ri of which freq. ratio is 256/243
4) ri of which freq. ratio is 135/128

I want to learn which type of swara from 4 of them do the thaats in the circle of thaats include. 


Could you share the resources please? I could not find them. (neither in wikipedia)

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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #5 
Ramakant Gundecha argued that when one note in a scale was intonated a little high, the next one would be low, and so on in alternation. He would tell you the alternating pattern for each raga. However, I’m not certain even his brother signed on to that theory.

I’m not sure there is a concrete answer. Most artists don’t have such fine control over mictotonal intonation. The ones that do have the control seem to work by intuition as they improvise. Because of this, I don’t think theory will be of much help. As always, listening to the greats and copying them is the best approach.
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zanshin777

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thank you very much all for the answers.

I want to play those thaats on my MIDI keyboard. That's why I need this information.

If there is a theoretical resource (link, book etc.) I'll appreciate that.
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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777

I want to learn which type of swara from 4 of them do the thaats in the circle of thaats include. 

Could you share the resources please? I could not find them. (neither in wikipedia)


Well the only ones I can pull from memory right now are Dr. Vidyadhar Oke, Dr. K. Varadarangan, and Alain Daniélou. 

I don't know if Varadarangan has a website or has published anything, but Oke has a website at http://www.22shruti.com/index.asp

Daniélou wrote "Music and the Power of Sound  The Influence of Tuning and Interval on Consciousness" (1995), and at least one other book that contained extensive intonation charts, but the title of which I'm afraid I cannot remember :·( 

David



  

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Tomek Regulski

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Reply with quote  #8 
So, I think it is important to note that, at least from my understanding, the thaats do not actually exist in a musical sense, and rather only in the attempt of classifying ragas from a theoretical point of view. Thus I would be surprised if anyone claimed that they had specific tunings of the swaras beyond the general shuddha/komal/tivra. 

The reason for this is that each raga under any given thaat will have its own tunings. For instance, Kafi, Bhimpalasi, and Bageshri will all have very different fine tunings. Therefore, to give a specific tuning to Kafi (or any other) thaat would be pointless.

So - if you are trying to emulate a specific raga, then I would either consult with your teacher, if you have one, or listen to your favorite recordings and sing each note with a tanpura to pinpoint the tuning. 

Or - if your intention is for more general practice, and it is easy enough to program different tunings on your keyboard, spend some time with each option (and with a tanpura) and see which combination helps you to achieve your goals. In this case, I think Ramakant Gundecha's approach, as stated above by geezerjazz, of alternating higher/lower option is a great place to start, as it gives an asymmetrical layout to the scale that will have a nice aesthetic. For example he would say that for Kafi Re/Ma/Dha lake the higher tuning, and Ga/Pa(yes, Pa)/Ni take the lower tuning. 

I hope that the above it helpful. Again, these are ideas from my particular learning and understanding so far, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were alternate ideas out there. 

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zanshin777

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Reply with quote  #9 
Thank you very much all for the answers. 😉
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Stephen.bansuri

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Reply with quote  #10 
I don’t know if this makes sense to people more knowledgeable than but I am very aware that in raga from the Purvi thaat with komal for instance that the komal re and shuddh ga that the komal,re is often played with a lower pitch than the komal re in a raga from for instance Todi which includes komal re and komal ga.

I make this observations from listening but actually the difference is so small it only reveals itself in context and more as a sort of colour that it gives the whole raga than purely as a matter of pitch.

My observations are not limited to this one example.

I do understand the mathematical foundation for this observation as well as being aware of it aurally but from my point of view trying to fossilise it into the terms of a midi keyboard is only going to give a facade of the colours of the raga.Although I do understand why someone Would wish to do this as it would Be one way out of the strait jacket of equal temperament that keyboards impose on ragas.

I speak here as a Bansuri player

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