Indian Music Forums

how to learn ICM on western instruments? GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
Reply
437 posts theprosperone 437 posts
theprosperone
I heard a piece on NPR today about the science of pleasure. Part of it really caught my ear because they were talking about a study done with Wine to study pleasure in the human brain. Basically it talks a little bit about the science behind how knowing more about something will increase your ability to derive pleasure from it. Basically they allude to the idea that if you study music, you're ability to get pleasure from music increases and so does your enjoyment itself. Really interesting because it somewhat goes along with my ideas in this thread and I figured someone might want to give it a listen. I'm going to poke around when I have free time to see what else I can find out about this. Lord knows I love to beat a dead horse!

Thoughts?
Reply 0 0
Lukecash12 136 posts
Lukecash12
I already sent the link for the Carlute, but I may as well send it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4ppQKmehI&feature=PlayList&p=EB24FC8BFD4D816F&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Edit: Also, I apologize, but the Carlute presented in the video has 11 courses, not 13.
The statement below this is false.
The statement above this is true.
Reply 0 0
Lukecash12 136 posts
Lukecash12
jaan wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Now, of course, neither Harpsichord or Piano is capable of proper Meend, but that doesn't detract from their accessibility, quality, and availability.
Who cares about their accessibility and availability when they are incapable of the basics of raag? Are we dogs to lick the proverbial you know what just because it's available to us?

It is not progress but regression if for the sake of novelty musicians adopt instruments that are unsuitable to play raag music. Simple as that. Even the guitar is very limited in this sense. I don't know what a Carlute is, mind sending a link? An instrument must be capable of producing meends and andolans and other related ornaments accessibly and accurately to be even considered as suitable.
What are you bigoted towards? It isn't very clear.
The statement below this is false.
The statement above this is true.
Reply 0 0
jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Quote:
What are you bigoted towards? It isn't very clear.
I thought I made it quite clear actually. I am bigoted against instruments that are incapable of producing proper raag music, in the context of raag music. They are perfectly fine in the context of the music they were originally designed to play, though.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
Reply 0 0
jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Lukecash12 wrote:
I already sent the link for the Carlute, but I may as well send it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4ppQKmehI&feature=PlayList&p=EB24FC8BFD4D816F&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Edit: Also, I apologize, but the Carlute presented in the video has 11 courses, not 13.
But all I am hearing is a guitar/lute like instrument playing staccato notes. Where are the meends, gamaks and andolans?
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
Reply 0 0
Lukecash12 136 posts
Lukecash12
jaan wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
I already sent the link for the Carlute, but I may as well send it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4ppQKmehI&feature=PlayList&p=EB24FC8BFD4D816F&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Edit: Also, I apologize, but the Carlute presented in the video has 11 courses, not 13.
But all I am hearing is a guitar/lute like instrument playing staccato notes. Where are the meends, gamaks and andolans?
The master is playing a piece by Silvius Leopold Weiss. However, the strings on the instrument are bendable, and the instrument displays the capability to produce ornaments.
The statement below this is false.
The statement above this is true.
Reply 0 0
ragamala Senior Member 1,744 posts
ragamala
Sitarfixer wrote:
I got to restring Tarunda's Santoor years back while I was living in San Diego and he was hanging there for a few months. He's got a solo bass string ( guitar A ) ( tuned to SA ) about four bridges up from the bottom on the left side. He mallets it between bridge rows as standard but pushes the string down between the bridge and the end of the box much like working a Japanese Koto with the left hand. Result is almost a full octave meend. I haven't gone through the YouTube offerings yet but that string is there and it works !.....................................

You'll know it when you hear it. Really stands out!
It certainly does! Stand out that is - unfortunately to my ear it is as though the mouse has suddenly disappeared and a growling bear jumped on the instrument. A big discontinuity of sound that I personally find unacceptable.

This is the same sort of addition/technique that Bhajan Sopori uses. I just don't like the resulting sounds, but that's my personal preference. If pushed, I would far prefer to hear Shiv Sharma, who really has done his best to introduce the santoor to ICM, without gimmicks, and I think he has done pretty damn well.

But basically I am still aligned with JeK in that my listening preference is for instruments which are well-suited to the raga requirements. I include violin in this.

Years ago I tried very hard to like John Barham's piano playing of ICM. I totally failed, I'm afraid.

As I think I reported when this topic or a similar one came up some time ago, I did find a clarinet performance of ICM quite acceptable once, but that may have been because the artiste was an attractive young lady. The jury is still out on sax, but (returning to the original post), why not give it a go, yes indeed!
Reply 0 0
musicslug Senior Member 345 posts
musicslug
getting back to the OP:

the logic seems kind of inverted (that your son should study ICM on sax since he already plays sax and picking up a new instrument is undesirable). your son already is learning tabla - quite different from sax - so he's demonstrated an ability to diversify - why stop at two instruments? lots of people try more than that before settling on 'the one'.

if he's interested in melodic (vs. rhythmic) ICM, he'll get the deepest understanding if he studies an Indian instrument, since they're made to play that music. if he takes up, say, sitar, he might totally get into it and ditch the sax (and tabla) entirely. you'll find more than a few people on this site with western instruments in their pasts. ICM instruments have a way of making their adopters leave everything else behind...

Golpanath does play sax, but it's Carnatic music - pretty much a separate genre, and a more radical departure for a jazz sax/Hindustani tabla player than taking up a Hindustani melody instrument would be - he'd have to learn a whole new musical system.

it seems the issue is whether your son wants to dabble in ICM or get serious. N. Indian (i.e. Hindustani) classical on the sax is bound to miss so much (meends, etc.) that it really raises the question of why do it at all.

re teachers: if your son is already listening to ICM, which artists does he like? what instruments? the people on this forum could probably be very helpful finding a teacher if you give more info about what in ICM your son's drawn to.

I think it boils down to not doing 'half-measures'. if your son is truly interested in ICM, let him get the real experience, using a traditional instrument and working with a good teacher. that will give him the best shot at understanding why we're all so nuts about this music.
Reply 0 0
Bill 161 posts
Bill
Well said, musicslug.
Reply 0 0
Lukecash12 136 posts
Lukecash12
musicslug wrote:
getting back to the OP:

the logic seems kind of inverted (that your son should study ICM on sax since he already plays sax and picking up a new instrument is undesirable). your son already is learning tabla - quite different from sax - so he's demonstrated an ability to diversify - why stop at two instruments? lots of people try more than that before settling on 'the one'.

if he's interested in melodic (vs. rhythmic) ICM, he'll get the deepest understanding if he studies an Indian instrument, since they're made to play that music. if he takes up, say, sitar, he might totally get into it and ditch the sax (and tabla) entirely. you'll find more than a few people on this site with western instruments in their pasts. ICM instruments have a way of making their adopters leave everything else behind...

Golpanath does play sax, but it's Carnatic music - pretty much a separate genre, and a more radical departure for a jazz sax/Hindustani tabla player than taking up a Hindustani melody instrument would be - he'd have to learn a whole new musical system.

it seems the issue is whether your son wants to dabble in ICM or get serious. N. Indian (i.e. Hindustani) classical on the sax is bound to miss so much (meends, etc.) that it really raises the question of why do it at all.

re teachers: if your son is already listening to ICM, which artists does he like? what instruments? the people on this forum could probably be very helpful finding a teacher if you give more info about what in ICM your son's drawn to.

I think it boils down to not doing 'half-measures'. if your son is truly interested in ICM, let him get the real experience, using a traditional instrument and working with a good teacher. that will give him the best shot at understanding why we're all so nuts about this music.
Thanks for getting us back on track.
The statement below this is false.
The statement above this is true.
Reply 0 0
rajpuranik 116 posts
rajpuranik
Thank you all for a most interesting and passionate discussion. Consensus seems to be that ICM is best appreciated on instruments that have the capabilities ICM demands - saxophone not really being one of them - although my son says you can bend notes on it, so at least it's ahead of harmonium and santoor in that respect.

One issue with having my son start a new instrument for ICM is that each instrument introduces a learning curve of its own.

There is a social reason as well - he feels at home with the saxophone - all his friends know what a saxophone is and it's "cool" to be part of the jazz band. Hardly anyone knows what a tabla or ICM is, which makes it kind of a solitary pursuit - not something sociable teenagers typically go for. Why do so many western kids take up guitar? Because it's "cool."

Generally, I believe a lot more people might try learning ICM if they saw it as an extension of their repertoire on their current instrument. If they find it interesting, then they can always get a traditional instrument to overcome the technical limitations. So the saxophone can serve as an "entry" into the ICM (melodic) world, which is really all I want - for now.
Raj Puranik
http://worldmusicguru.com
Learn music online
Reply 0 0
panchamkauns 273 posts
panchamkauns
...

I’m confused as to how serious (or not) this has been. Luke, do you really feel that the harpsichord is well suited for raga music? That raga music only needs certain fixed notes in the octave, and no action between them?
We are 3
Reply 0 0
tablatime 25 posts
tablatime
the instruments are only vehicles for producing the music. in the part of the world we live in, mexico, there aren't many indian instruments. although we loan out tablas and sarodes to beginning students, there are more of them than instruments. we have found the humble recorder, flauta dulce, to be easily accessible and the music is transferable to other instruments like silver flute, sax or clarinet. as for the harmonium, it was invented by dworkinath ghosh, from the french foot-pumped organ. he was the grandfather of our teacher, jnan prakash ghosh. jnan-babu realized the limitations of harmonium,but he accompanied many vocalists and could play as it if it had meend. have you ever heard his duet with himself on harmonium with a south indian musician on piano? best piece of fusion i've ever heard...
jaan wrote:
I still don't understand why there needs to be adoption of western instruments when the native ones are better. I could understand it if there was a western instrument that was sonically interesting and novel that didn't have a good counterpart AND could perform all the nuances of raagdaari but there are not many. Why violin when the sarangi is so much richer in tone? Why the sax when the shehnai kicks ass AND can play meend? Why guitar when you got sitar and sarood?
Reply 0 0
Lukecash12 136 posts
Lukecash12
panchamkauns wrote:
...

I’m confused as to how serious (or not) this has been. Luke, do you really feel that the harpsichord is well suited for raga music? That raga music only needs certain fixed notes in the octave, and no action between them?
Yes, I'm certain. A harpsichord can make an excellent drone progression, and it's unique timbre would bring a lot of charm into a Raga.
The statement below this is false.
The statement above this is true.
Reply 0 0
jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Lukecash12 wrote:

Yes, I'm certain. A harpsichord can make an excellent drone progression, and it's unique timbre would bring a lot of charm into a Raga.

Even if that were true, and I'm not sure that it is, can you imagine Hindustani musicians lugging around an harpsichord from venue to venue when they've ditched their own beautifully nuanced proper drone trampoura for an easy to carry electronic version?

Please read the following article on drones in the ICM context:

http://www.warrensenders.com/journal/?p=678
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
Reply 0 0
theprosperone 437 posts
theprosperone
Lacking the ability for large meend will not automatically exclude an instrument for being able to play raga music, right? Its an interesting question when you really think about it. I know the ability for playing meend is huge in expression while playing Hindustani music but so is the chalan and pakad of the raga, etc. I don't think a raga is dependent of any single aspect to make it what it is. If you play Yaman but never play Ni Re GA going up, you'll definitely not feel Yaman. Still, I think you can play Yaman with no meend and feel the heart of the raga. Meend is more of an extreme ornament isn't it? I know the importance of meend, don't take my comment as trying to disregard that. Yet somehow Pt Shiv Kumar Sharma can color the mind as well as any artist without such emphasis on meend. I really enjoy the sound of a santoor and find its music to still be able to tug at the heart strings. Like Ragamala said in another thread, the music should never be subservient to the instrument.

I think it can work to play raga music on any instrument as long as it is capable of the notes needed for the raga. Its the raga embedded in the musician who can express it when he sits down with an instrument as a medium. No "feature" of an instrument makes the music. Sympathetic strings aren't on a Rudra Veena and that instrument just poors out emotion. Of course certain instruments are better suited for Raga music but in the hands of an artist that truly understands a raga, any instrument will work. Its funny, this topic reminds me of my first teacher Patric. I was told he went into someone's house and found an old mandolin laying around. He picked it up and asked what it was and then went right into playing a raga. All I know is many years later when I became his student he taught mandolin raga music. One of his students played at his memorial service and it was very nice, I would have LOVED to hear him play one. Anyway, I ramble but I hope I got my idea across. I think I really ride the fence though because Indian instruments like sitar, sarod and sarangi just seem so perfectly expressive for raga music. Think of it this way, you can cut down a tree with a katana sword if ya need to, especially if you're a skilled swordsman. Still, I bet you'd really rather have a big ole' axe huh? Sure, sometimes it might be fun to go out and chop down a tree with your ninja sword but when it really comes time to chop some wood for winter, I bet you'll always use your axe. Its all about choosing the right tool for the job!
Reply 0 0
Reply