INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "TablaBeatz"
Pascal thanks for sharing - as you know dowry was usually in the form of wealth or money - perhaps Baksu Khan had not much wealth - but for Vilayet Khan the kaidas were valued like wealth to him which he gladly accepted as equivalent dowry -

Perhaps the lesson was kaidas have a high high high value ...
Not that it matters much, but in the interest of accuracy it appears that the dowry of kaidas was considerably more than 12. According to Theory And Practice Of Tabla By Sadanand Naimpalli, it was more like 1000 gats and gat-parans!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5712/farukhabaddowry.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

(While this google book is not complete, it has extensive previews and is chock full of not only interesting information, but lots of delightful bits of trivia here and there. For example, there was tabla genius by the name of Khaprumama who could keep track of five separate taals simultaneously by banging out two different ones with his legs, 2 more with his hands, all the while reciting yet another! He could also play a Paran while reciting it backwards, and end both on sam simultaneously!)



Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
TablaBeatz

Registered:
Posts: 342
Reply with quote  #17 
That is so tabla genius indeed - but I find it hard to believe a lot of this stuff !
5 different taals at once ??!!

__________________
"The beginning of life is rhythm. When you’re in the womb your mother’s heart is beating at (about 90) decibels ... we were born of vibration 13.7 billion years ago with the explosion of the universe."
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "TablaBeatz"
That is so tabla genius indeed - but I find it hard to believe a lot of this stuff !
5 different taals at once ??!!
Maybe he's exaggerating a bit .... maybe it was only 4 different taals at once!


PB

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
Pujadaddy

Registered:
Posts: 42
Reply with quote  #19 
I've been with my guru for four years and he insists we memorize all of his variations. They range from (I am not joking) 45 to 130+ variations per kaida. It's just downright obnoxious, but by setting the bar high, I definitely think it gives me a lot to draw from with regards to explaining or improvising within a kaida. Do I have them all memorized yet? Some, but not all them, and by revisiting them on a regular basis they eventually become instinctual which is important. He always says, if you need to go get your notebook then you are a bol collector, not a tabla player.
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Pujadaddy"
I've been with my guru for four years and he insists we memorize all of his variations. They range from (I am not joking) 45 to 130+ variations per kaida. It's just downright obnoxious, but by setting the bar high, I definitely think it gives me a lot to draw from with regards to explaining or improvising within a kaida. Do I have them all memorized yet? Some, but not all them, and by revisiting them on a regular basis they eventually become instinctual which is important. He always says, if you need to go get your notebook then you are a bol collector, not a tabla player.
That's an impressive number of variations, all the more daunting if you have to memorize them! Your guruji has some exacting standards. But I can't help but wonder whether or not this imperative on memorizing so much material might not interfere with the goals and aims of practicing tabla, especially in the early stages (although after four years you're somewhat past that stage). What I mean is that in the early stages, the fundamental goal of practicing tabla is towards achieving some kind of (however imperfect) mastery over the instrument and that typically requires repetition of rather smallish phrases, and perhaps a variety of different phrases that accentuate certain bol patterns, fingering patterns, and so on, and perhaps even a whole kaida, but just the theme only. But that's somewhat at odds with the imperative to memorize the whole repertoire since that will require playing through the whole thing, or large chunks of it, in order to memorize it. While this also requires repetition, it seems like the goal is shifted away somewhat from mastering the instrument and more towards memorizing a repertoire. Let me reiterate here that I'm merely wondering (and speculating) out loud (and quite possibly making excuses for my failure to memorize hardly anything at all!)



Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
Pujadaddy

Registered:
Posts: 42
Reply with quote  #21 
@ Pascal: Its quite ridiculous I have felt at times, but he is a monster himself, and a disciple of Allah Rakha, and Zakirji so who am I to question. To clarify and in response to your "smallish phrases" point; this was with simple kaidas like gegetete gegenana (90+ variations), dhadhatete dhadhatina (50+ variations), or dhatidhatidhadhatina (40+ variations) in addition to other more complex ones. Those simple kaidas DO build technique, so I think his point in teaching them this way was exactly to A. Drill technique B. demonstrate how much can be done with so little, and C. get his students comprehending the language at the same time. We drilled those simple techniques FAR more than we probably would have with 6-8 paltas, and our technique improved because of it.

Respectfully, I'm not sure I would agree that the "fundamental goal" in the early stages is simply about "mastery" over the instrument. Zakir Hussain said in a workshop I attended that he hardly touched the tabla for the first three years. It is my guru's contention that its a minimum of a ten year process to develop a comprehensive grasp on things, and that while technique develops over time (with lots of practice), to create poetry one must first master a language. I believe that was also my Guruji's point in teaching this way and it has given us a deeper understanding than we would have had otherwise and has gotten that language flowing within us.

In fairness, learning this way was frustrating as hell at times but I guess hard work can be like that. I think it was especially hard as a Westerner, as we always want the next new thing.
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Pujadaddy"
@ Pascal: Its quite ridiculous I have felt at times, but he is a monster himself, and a disciple of Allah Rakha, and Zakirji so who am I to question. To clarify and in response to your "smallish phrases" point; this was with simple kaidas like gegetete gegenana (90+ variations), dhadhatete dhadhatina (50+ variations), or dhatidhatidhadhatina (40+ variations) in addition to other more complex ones. Those simple kaidas DO build technique, so I think his point in teaching them this way was exactly to A. Drill technique B. demonstrate how much can be done with so little, and C. get his students comprehending the language at the same time. We drilled those simple techniques FAR more than we probably would have with 6-8 paltas, and our technique improved because of it.
I think we agree more than we disagree here. In some ways, what I characterize as "smallish phrases" bears a family resemblance to variations of simple kaidas as you mention above. I completely agree that these very basic kaidas are fundamental building blocks for tabla technique.
Quote:
Respectfully, I'm not sure I would agree that the "fundamental goal" in the early stages is simply about "mastery" over the instrument. Zakir Hussain said in a workshop I attended that he hardly touched the tabla for the first three years. It is my guru's contention that its a minimum of a ten year process to develop a comprehensive grasp on things, and that while technique develops over time (with lots of practice), to create poetry one must first master a language. I believe that was also my Guruji's point in teaching this way and it has given us a deeper understanding than we would have had otherwise and has gotten that language flowing within us.
It may only be a matter of preference ultimately (instead of any deep pedagogical principle) in that my own preference would be for a teacher that, in the early stages, emphasizes at least some kind of proficiency (perhaps "mastery" is too strong a word) over the instrument. There's no disputing the 10 year rule (somewhat similar to the oft-quoted 10,000 hour rule). Indeed that rule seems universally accepted with respect to the mastery of just about any serious endeavors, not just musicianship, but also high level sports, and academia.

Quote:
In fairness, learning this way was frustrating as hell at times but I guess hard work can be like that. I think it was especially hard as a Westerner, as we always want the next new thing.
I strongly suspect that westerners are not alone in seeking the newest thing!


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
TablaBeatz

Registered:
Posts: 342
Reply with quote  #23 
Wow pujadaddy - that is ver impressive to be memorising 80+ paltas per kaida -

I think I would agree with your guru that this way can help you with improvisation - 6 to 8 paltas vs 80 paltas is a huge difference -

Lol - I also like the 'Bol collector' reference your teacher made

I guess the 80 palta route is a more sure way to advanced and professional playing -

In the I guess it's upto the tabla player and how far they want to go

With tabla - there is no end to how far you can go!

__________________
"The beginning of life is rhythm. When you’re in the womb your mother’s heart is beating at (about 90) decibels ... we were born of vibration 13.7 billion years ago with the explosion of the universe."
0
Pujadaddy

Registered:
Posts: 42
Reply with quote  #24 
@Pascal: there were plenty of things I would preferred to learn early on, not that those preferences were of any consequence. I think that is just the traditional Indian way of learning tabla. You do it all blind because they say so because you must be built from the ground up and that is the most efficient way to do it. To know that there were other basic things that I wasn't learning yet, it was difficult to want to do so much repetition, and little consolation that some techniques were quite developed. Recently he asked me to play one of these older kaidas, and I played like 60+ variations non stop and missed one, and he gave me the "angry guru lecture" about how I didn't know it, and hadn't done it enough.

@ Tablabeatz - Thanks. I don't always do it with every kaida, although its expected of me. It's interesting as in that amount of variation there is an evolution to it so if you memorize the first one in a series, and follow a logical progression, its not that hard to remember quite a number or all of them. Consider that you have 10 to 15 different series expressing a concept, with six to eight variations each elaborating on that concept. That logical progression allows each series to "connect" with the new series. They are not just 80+ randomly variations independent of each other. They progress.

I like the phrase as well. Ok, all of this is making me feel guilty so I am going to go work on memorizing something. Happy Holidays all!
0
pbercker

Registered:
Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Pujadaddy"
@ Tablabeatz - Thanks. I don't always do it with every kaida, although its expected of me. It's interesting as in that amount of variation there is an evolution to it so if you memorize the first one in a series, and follow a logical progression, its not that hard to remember quite a number or all of them. Consider that you have 10 to 15 different series expressing a concept, with six to eight variations each elaborating on that concept. That logical progression allows each series to "connect" with the new series. They are not just 80+ randomly variations independent of each other. They progress.

I like the phrase as well. Ok, all of this is making me feel guilty so I am going to go work on memorizing something. Happy Holidays all!
That's why I would love to actually see an extended set of variations for a single kaida in order to better see and appreciate this elaboration of concept as it progresses through the variations. I can't help but wonder whether it might be possible to slowly transform a well known kaida through an elaborate series of variations and arrive at the end with a well known but different kaida altogether! This seems eminently feasible if one starts with a fairly dense kaida theme that is laden with several different bols so that through judicious recombination of bols one can arrive at another kaida.


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
0
TablaBeatz

Registered:
Posts: 342
Reply with quote  #26 
Pascal - speaking of recombination of bols - have you noticed how some performers including Swapanji - when they play the teentaal theka leading into the kaida - the teentaal theka itself has a few elements of the kaida - as if to introduce you to the kaida - beautiful isn't it?


Yes - Happy Holidays every one !

__________________
"The beginning of life is rhythm. When you’re in the womb your mother’s heart is beating at (about 90) decibels ... we were born of vibration 13.7 billion years ago with the explosion of the universe."
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.