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uddhavadasa

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hello,

Has anyone researched Gandhara Grama? I have come to some conclusions, but the intervals are quite strange, and I don't know it its expected. Any sources that you know that will give more details on how Gandhara Grama is formed? Consonant intervals, etc?

With Love,
Uddhava dāsa
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plectum

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Reply with quote  #2 
Apparently, this grama is for gods only. Bhatkhande-ji gave a lecture in 1946 sketching the history of HCM briefly. There he mentions gandhara grama just once and does not stop to explain it. It did not seem that this grama was used too much.
The book by Dr. Anupam Mahajan describes these gramas, you can get a preview in google books.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=BH8B3AdPIP4C&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=gandhara+grama&source=bl&ots=VkIRnvz87n&sig=RllKQll3J2IHyb8Gh4BoIDiA_nY&hl=en&ei=jfxmTp_GDcTyrQejyKDzCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=gandhara%20grama&f=false

EDIT: What little I understood is that it is a matter of distributing the 22 shrutis.

Shadaj: 4,3,2,4,4,3,2
Madhyam: 4,3,2,4,3,4,2
Gandhar: 4,2,4,3,4,3,2

This also changes which swar is consonant with which.

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uddhavadasa

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Reply with quote  #3 
Dear Plectrum,

Thank you for your answer. I have just recently bought the book. It is a great source if information because it compiles the
data from many sources and gives a very broad overview.

I have calculated the values for Gandhara grama, and it matches with consonance values, but the tuning is quite odd
and I cant seem to understand why. Any other data or resouce is very valuable.

Also another very interesting fact is that Natya Sastra does mention Gandhara grama in the percussion section, but
not to be seen in the melodic section. Weird eh?

With Love,
Uddhava dāsa
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David Russell Watson

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Reply with quote  #4 
See the article at http://anaphoria.com/kolin.PDF

The Ga-Grāma isn't mentioned until very close to the end.

David
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uddhavadasa

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Reply with quote  #5 
Dear David,

Thanks for sharing. He basically that Ga-Grama and Ma-Grama are one and the same. I can't accept that, because Dattiam, and other ancient scriptures all mention
Gandhara grāma as a separate grama. In fact they explain that therer 21 mūrcchanas. So it can't be that they are the same. 21 mūrchanas (modes), seven from each grāma.

Thanks for sending the PDF, but unfortunately it is inaccurate.

With Love,
Uddhava dāsa
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David Russell Watson

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Posts: 362
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "uddhavadasa"
Dear David,

Thanks for sharing. He basically that Ga-Grama and Ma-Grama are one and the same. I can't accept that, because Dattiam, and other ancient scriptures all mention
Gandhara grāma as a separate grama. In fact they explain that therer 21 mūrcchanas. So it can't be that they are the same. 21 mūrchanas (modes), seven from each grāma.
Our authors' actual knowledge of the gāndhāra grāma seems to be vague at best, though. Some mention it not at all, while those who do vary in their description of it. Almost all describe it as out of use in their time, however, and as such their understanding of it was likely murky.

The listing of twenty-one mūrcchanas doesn't really insure that twenty-one distinct mūrcchanas were in actual use either. The mūrcchanas were derived from the grāmas by serially shifting the tonic to each of their seven notes, so when an author endorsed the existence of three grāmas, he had also perforce to claim twenty-one mūrcchanas, seven for each grāma. I don't remember off hand the names of the mūrcchanas of the gāndhāra grāma, but if I remember correctly most of them were identical to the names of the corresponding sa-grāma or ma-grāma mūrcchanas, which doesn't inspire confidence that they were distinct musical entities.

Moreover some authors, actually I think most, actually only listed fourteen mūrcchanas, seven for the ṣaḍja grāma and seven for the madhyama grāma, as that was all that were likely in use in their time and/or known to them at all.

This makes it quite possible, though not necessarily so, that “gāndhāra grāma” was just an obsolete alternate name for one of the grāmas already in use, as Kolinski suggests. There are any number of other explanations for its odd disappearance, though, I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "uddhavadasa"
Thanks for sending the PDF, but unfortunately it is inaccurate.
Well you're very welcome, though I don't think we can say it's inaccurate. I'm convinced myself that most of what Kolinski says here has a sound basis and is likely accurate, and is necessary reading for anybody wishing to understand the ancient grāmas. Moreover his personal guess about the mystery of the ga-grāma is only one very small part of the whole article, and hardly invalidates his main thesis.

David
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uddhavadasa

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #7 
Hello,

There are several scriptures that talk about Gandhara Grāma: Naradiya Shiksha, Sangita Makaranda,
They all use the same names for the mūrcchanas of Gandhara grāma, which are totally different from
Sa and Ma Grama:

Ga Grāma Mūrcchana Names
Nanda
Vishala
Sumukhi
Chitta
Chitravali
Shubha
Alapa

Sa Grāma Mūrcchana Names
Uttaramandra
Abhirudgata
Ashwakranta
Matsarikuta
Shuddha Sadja
Uttarayata
Rajani

Ma Grāma Mūrcchana Names
Saveri
Harshak
Pouravi
Margi
Shuddha Madhyam
Kalopanata
Harinashwa

With Love,
Uddhava dāsa
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David Russell Watson

Senior Member
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Posts: 362
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "uddhavadasa"
Hello,

There are several scriptures that talk about Gandhara Grāma: Naradiya Shiksha, Sangita Makaranda,
They all use the same names for the mūrcchanas of Gandhara grāma, which are totally different from
Sa and Ma Grama:

[edit]
Ah so they do. Sorry about that; it's been almost twenty years since I was reading on this topic.

So what do you suppose yourself explains the ga grāma's odd śruti arrangement and obsolescence?

David
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uddhavadasa

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #9 
Dear David,

My only explanation so far, is that only certain mūrcchanas are used (two or three that sound really beautiful). The other ones are not used, just in the same way
that not all the mūrcchanas of sadja-grāma are used to form Jatis.

Another possible explanation is that those intervals have to be played octaves apart to produce the proper harmony.

I'm sure there is someone else around that has done this research before?

With Love,
Uddhava dāsa
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