Indian Music Forums

Fret width on your rudra vin? MELODIC INSTRUMENTS
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Senior Member 410 posts westsea Senior Member 410 posts
westsea
povster wrote:
In retrospect, as far as kharaj mir goes, the fret width itself is not as relevant as the width form the kharaj to the end of the fret combine with what pitch you are tune to and string thickness.

I have app 3/4" (19mm) from kharaj to end of fret in the usable range.
My KanaiLals have 1.125 inches and the Nitai Chandra Nath has 1 inch.
Tuned to G sharp using .048 phosphor bronze.
Interesting that I can get more pull range, on my Nitai, with less pull space.

I suspect Marcotty would have loved this topic. If you've read 'The Way Music', you
know he was always measuring and analyzing these instruments.
naad_brahma wrote:
perhaps built in the vision of what Murari saw as the ideal design for veena
Unfortunately, we don't have Murari here, to ask him. But, there may be supporting evidence for
naad's comment. Scott Hackleman asked Murari to build a veena for him. Murari asked how he
would like it built. Scott asked him to build it, the way he would build a veena for himself.
It's a hybrid Dagar / Traditional, similar to mine and naad's. naad's has more of a Dagar look.

Regardless... if you own a KanaiLal / Murari veena... whichever style, count your blessings.
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
Naad - quick question relating to the extreme meend range you achieve.

Is this for the bajtar (string on the outside edge of the neck, closest to
he chikari) or for the kharaj string, which has much less fret available
for meend? Thanks, sorry if I am unable to tell the answer by the string
gauge mentioned as I am woefully ignorant on Veena.......
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
Yes, of course, the toombas are almost perfect replicas of the original "Helmholtz Resonator"
and the resonance pitch of a helmholtz resonator is able to be tuned by altering the port
size and/or length. And of course the dandi (isn't that what y'all call the stick portion of
the Veena??) is nothing more or less the a column of pulsating, vibrating air and also could
be tuned (by moving some interior plate) to a particular pitch just like an organ pipe.
Then the holes where the toombas attach are connected to the "organ pipe" dandi and
those holes function - or could - just like the holes in a flute. Once again tunable by their
placement, size, and perhaps again a movable interior plate..

When I was sitting for months in the shop of Radha Krishna Sharma, watching them build
sitars and surbs I had fantasies of doing just that, having a moveable interior plate to
tune the resonance of the hollow neck to SA or PA or whatever would be best.......
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naad_brahma Member 92 posts
naad_brahma
Okay, now I'm prepared to rattle off measurements. First off the scale from back of the bridge to the front edge of the nut is 39 1/8". I tune it to G but it appears both the tumbas resonate at G# if I blow into them. I think maybe the G thing for me is psychological and it just resonates with me a bit better. I remember I had this veena in A once and it was astounding, but that was mainly because it was under a lot more tension. The drawback was a reduced meend range and it seemed to be less stable. As for strings here is what's on it(from highest chikari across):

.011 steel
.014 steel
.014 steel

.018 steel
.022 bronze
.028 bronze
.036 bronze

.022 bronze

.036 seems thin on paper but for my veena I am able to get it to sustain well and produce a consistent and resonant tone. I could try a thicker gauge sometime, .038 might improve in marginally but I like the way it sounds now to be honest. My strings are getting old so I might do some experimenting sooner or later. For the reference here is a picture of it:
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k515/raag_darbari_kanada/Kanailal%20Rudra%20Veena/veenasmall.jpg
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
What an absolutely sensational instrument, you are so very fortunate.

I am guessing Kanai Lal? Your string tension/meend range must be
very similar to the Sur-Bahar owned and played by Ustad Imrat Khan
which is also similar in scale length (39-1/2"). Would you be kind
enough to provide me with the actual tuning note of each string?

I am woefully ignorant and do not even know if all strings (other
than chikari) are fretted and played on for melody. Thank you,
I hope I am lucky to meet you someday and hear you play. GF
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naad_brahma Member 92 posts
naad_brahma
For tuning the main strings from thickest to thinnest are: ma(.018), sa(.022), pa(.028), sa(.036), and if staring at the bridge from the tailpiece they are exactly in that order. It's natural to think the kharaj string would not have enough fret room, but the strings are offset is such a way to accomodate this. The chikari strings are played with the right hand pinky and tuned: sa(.014) sa(.014) sa'(.011), some veenas only have two chikari in which case they would be sa sa' The last remaining string, the laraj, is found on the opposite side of the chikari strings and is played with either the thumb, or pinky. It is tuned to sa(.022), same octave as the jod or second main string.
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
A quick calculation on the Wahuiddin string tension site shows that G
in the "first octave" (49 hertz) will give a string gauge of .036 if it is
tensioned at 10 pounds (very slack, an .011 on E4 25.5" stratocaster
gives 20 pounds for example). Thank you for the feedback !!
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
fossesitar wrote:
A quick calculation on the Wahuiddin string tension site shows that G
in the "first octave" (49 hertz) will give a string gauge of .036 if it is
tensioned at 10 pounds (very slack, an .011 on E4 25.5" stratocaster
gives 20 pounds for example). Thank you for the feedback !!
Greg, from what I gather the Wahuiddin string tension site is dedicated to guitars? I am not sure what this has to do with the rudra vin. There are gauges specified in this thread and in http://forums.chandrakantha.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9728

What is it you are seeking? And how are you extrapolating a guitar site to a rudra vin?
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
I use the Wahuiddin site to calculate string tension, you can plug any string length
into the calculator, it is useful for any stringed instrument. I am in the process of
final design on the Ultra-Surb so these calculations and this information is very
useful for that. Plus I am already in the thinking stages for an Ultra-Veena......

Normal practice or "common knowledge" indicates string tension of at least 12 to
14 pounds is needed to achieve acceptable sound, Indian instruments obviously
expand the lower limits of that for meend capabilities - and of course the instant
meend is executed the string tension has been increased !! However, Pov, as you
know from your own experience, the slacker the string is, the more difficult any
precision with meend becomes !! The slightest hint of movement can change the
pitch by a noticable amount and of course that is how one can achieve 7 notes.

I grew up playing the violin, hardly an easy instrument to play in tune. I find that
meend masy be the most challenging and difficult thing one can do on a musical
instrument with any precision and speed. Par for the course, all Indian musical
instruments seem to have been designed to torture not only the body but the
soul as well. Sitar cuts fingers, sarangi into the quick of the nail, etc etc. :twisted:
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Surbaharplayer 425 posts
Surbaharplayer
weird...double post....
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Surbaharplayer 425 posts
Surbaharplayer
BTW... my frets are 8,5 cm wide (3,34"). When I meend from Re on the Kharaj I reach Ni (but using the three-finger pull, not sure if this is also used on the traditional veena's).
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Surbaharplayer 425 posts
Surbaharplayer
Surbaharplayer wrote:
naad_brahma wrote:
Okay, now I'm prepared to rattle off measurements. First off the scale from back of the bridge to the front edge of the nut is 39 1/8". I tune it to G but it appears both the tumbas resonate at G# if I blow into them. I think maybe the G thing for me is psychological and it just resonates with me a bit better. I remember I had this veena in A once and it was astounding, but that was mainly because it was under a lot more tension. The drawback was a reduced meend range and it seemed to be less stable. As for strings here is what's on it(from highest chikari across):

.011 steel
.014 steel
.014 steel

.018 steel
.022 bronze
.028 bronze
.036 bronze

.022 bronze

.036 seems thin on paper but for my veena I am able to get it to sustain well and produce a consistent and resonant tone. I could try a thicker gauge sometime, .038 might improve in marginally but I like the way it sounds now to be honest. My strings are getting old so I might do some experimenting sooner or later. For the reference here is a picture of it:
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k515/raag_darbari_kanada/Kanailal%20Rudra%20Veena/veenasmall.jpg

What a stunner!!!! Beautifull instrument!!!
Just curious about your choice in strings though; your Kharaj is my pancham, gauge wise...and your pitch is a halfstap lower

Last year Bahauddin strung up my veena with a .043 instead of a 0.45 for mainstring and I immediatly felt the difference in sound and volume (I went back later to my old gauge).He changed the string since he used my veena for his perfomances over here and he plays in A (I'm in G#).

I'm really curious; have you ever tried the heavier strings? I'm sure it would make a lot of difference, both soundwise and volumewise, but also, as mentioned, in precision.

I'm also curious about your veena: the tuning pegs are placed in different position (closer to the nut) and the headstock seems shorter). Never seen this on any other KL-Dagarveena.
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westsea Senior Member 410 posts
westsea
Surbaharplayer wrote:
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k515/raag_darbari_kanada/Kanailal%20Rudra%20Veena/veenasmall.jpg


I'm also curious about your veena: the tuning pegs are placed in different position (closer to the nut) and the headstock seems shorter). Never seen this on any other KL-Dagarveena.
Remco, while this has the appearance of a Dagarveena, it is a hybrid.
It's a smaller, lighter instrument.
This one, I believe...
http://www.karaseksound.com/ShowBigPic.php?ID=IMG0140
Lighter gauge strings make sense.
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povster Senior Member 2,537 posts
povster
In retrospect, as far as kharaj mir goes, the fret width itself is not as relevant as the width form the kharaj to the end of the fret combine with what pitch you are tune to and string thickness.

I have app 3/4" (19mm) from kharaj to end of fret in the usable range.
...Michael
Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official sandwich of ICM
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naad_brahma Member 92 posts
naad_brahma
Westsea is correct, my veena is indeed not a Dagarbani instrument. It is one of the more rare hybrid instruments that Murari made, Westea is a lucky owner of one of them too The dhand on my veena is a lot slimmer and much closer to a traditional veena. Thinner gauges are more ideal for the sound I want, and my instrument seems to be designed to accommodate this. Tony has it listed as Dagarbani on his museum page but I've talked to many people about this instrument and everyone has confirmed it is a hybrid instrument; perhaps built in the vision of what Murari saw as the ideal design for veena. For me it is a perfect fit, I prefer the sound of three chikari strings, love the makara carving, and prefer to play over the shoulder. It's a fantastic sounding instrument, one of the best Kanailal I have put my paws on, and also aesthetically I am very partial to my instrument.
The usable fret for my kharaj string is about 1 1/16", and indeed this is a better way to measure the frets on a veena if we are just talking about how much pulling room is available.
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fossesitar Senior Member 983 posts
fossesitar
Thank you again, Naad, for more clarification and more details on this
extremely rare and exquisite musical instrument. It is inspiring and
other-worldly and I imagine that describes the sound as well.
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