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surojeet

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Reply with quote  #16 
I am also a beginner.

My teacher says that my Baya is very weak ...

Do u play only with the power coming from fingers for baya ?

Or do u put power from shoulder ?

tell me some exercises to Make my BAYA stronger.

Suro
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "surojeet"
I am also a beginner.

My teacher says that my Baya is very weak ...

Do u play only with the power coming from fingers for baya ?

Or do u put power from shoulder ?

tell me some exercises to Make my BAYA stronger.

Suro

Exercise no. 1:

Slow, regimented, and extended practice with the correct technique. The shoulders, arms, wrist, and fingers should all be relaxed.

Aanaddha

"Only the Masters; great Pandits and Ustads have routinely practiced in vilambit and ati-vilambit laya."

_

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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #18 
I've been thinking about this; if I was to begin again or if I was a teacher (I'm not) I would spend the first 6-12 months strictly on dexterity and distinct sound production techniques - using only the bols 'Dha', 'Na' and 'te' or 'ti' - and all of their variations in fours, each variation being played repeatedly until it became second-nature; in both forward and reverse and in both Delhi and Purab styles. After sufficient clarity was achieved in each variation, the bols 'Dhin' and 'Tin' would be sustituted for 'Dha' and 'Na' or combined.

variations:
1         Dha         Dha         Dha         Dha
2         Na         Dha         Dha         Dha
3         te         Dha         Dha         Dha
4         Dha         Na         Dha         Dha
5         Na         Na         Dha         Dha
6         te         Na         Dha         Dha
7         Dha         te         Dha         Dha
8         Na         te         Dha         Dha
9         te         te         Dha         Dha
10         Dha         Dha         Na         Dha
11         Na         Dha         Na         Dha
12         te         Dha         Na         Dha
13         Dha         Na         Na         Dha
14         Na         Na         Na         Dha
15         te         Na         Na         Dha
16         Dha         te         Na         Dha
17         Na         te         Na         Dha
18         te         te         Na         Dha
19         Dha         Dha         te         Dha
20         Na         Dha         te         Dha
21         te         Dha         te         Dha
22         Dha         Na         te         Dha
23         Na         Na         te         Dha
24         te         Na         te         Dha
25         Dha         te         te         Dha
26         Na         te         te         Dha
27         te         te         te         Dha
28         Dha         Dha         Dha         Na
29         Na         Dha         Dha         Na
30         te         Dha         Dha         Na
31         Dha         Na         Dha         Na
32         Na         Na         Dha         Na
33         te         Na         Dha         Na
34         Dha         te         Dha         Na
35         Na         te         Dha         Na
36         te         te         Dha         Na
37         Dha         Dha         Na         Na
38         Na         Dha         Na         Na
39         te         Dha         Na         Na
40         Dha         Na         Na         Na
41         Na         Na         Na         Na
42         te         Na         Na         Na
43         Dha         te         Na         Na
44         Na         te         Na         Na
45         te         te         Na         Na
46         Dha         Dha         te         Na
47         Na         Dha         te         Na
48         te         Dha         te         Na
49         Dha         Na         te         Na
50         Na         Na         te         Na
51         te         Na         te         Na
52         Dha         te         te         Na
53         Na         te         te         Na
54         te         te         te         Na
55         Dha         Dha         Dha         te
56         Na         Dha         Dha         te
57         te         Dha         Dha         te
58         Dha         Na         Dha         te
59         Na         Na         Dha         te
60         te         Na         Dha         te
61         Dha         te         Dha         te
62         Na         te         Dha         te
63         te         te         Dha         te
64         Dha         Dha         Na         te
65         Na         Dha         Na         te
66         te         Dha         Na         te
67         Dha         Na         Na         te
68         Na         Na         Na         te
69         te         Na         Na         te
70         Dha         te         Na         te
71         Na         te         Na         te
72         te         te         Na         te
73         Dha         Dha         te         te
74         Na         Dha         te         te
75         te         Dha         te         te
76         Dha         Na         te         te
77         Na         Na         te         te
78         te         Na         te         te
79         Dha         te         te         te
80         Na         te         te         te
81         te         te         te         te


.
A.

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Chaz

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Posts: 147
Reply with quote  #19 
Surojeet, the power should definitely come from the fingers. In fact that's true of both drums:you should be able to play a nice strong "na" on the dayan without moving your wrist hardly at all. If you try and get power from the wrist of your dayan hand or the shoulder on the bayan side (like I did! ) you will have to backtrack and fix your technique later (like I did! ).
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anahad

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Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #20 
Aanaddha

Thanks for your list of begining exercise. I would like to ask two clarifications. I will really appreciate if you take time to understand my questions clearly and answer them as these little uncertainities give much confusions.

1. te when used as a single, will it come out like Ti (closed sound played by middle finger on syahi in dayan) so "te Dha te Dha" it will be played same as in
Dha Ti Dha Ti
Dha Dha Tin Na
or is something else?

2. But the same te te when comes in double should be played as Ti Ta (Index finger on dayan syahi followed by middle finger on dayan syahi)
so Dha te te Dha should be practiced same as in
Dha Dha Ti Ta
Dha Dha Tin Na.
or is it different.

Thanks in advance

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Chaz

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Posts: 147
Reply with quote  #21 
I think I can answer that, and Aanaddha can either affirm this or correct me:

1) te Dha te Dha would be the same as Dha ti Dha ti (just as you said, with the middle finger as opposed to index).

2) tete should be played middle finger first, then index finger, and not the other way around, just like in this kaida: Dha tete Dha tete DhaDha tete Dhaghe Tina Kena.
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Aanaddha

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Posts: 1,932
Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "anahad"
Aanaddha

Thanks for your list of begining exercise. I would like to ask two clarifications. I will really appreciate if you take time to understand my questions clearly and answer them as these little uncertainities give much confusions.

1. te when used as a single, will it come out like Ti (closed sound played by middle finger on syahi in dayan) so "te Dha te Dha" it will be played same as in
Dha Ti Dha Ti
Dha Dha Tin Na
or is something else?

2. But the same te te when comes in double should be played as Ti Ta (Index finger on dayan syahi followed by middle finger on dayan syahi)
so Dha te te Dha should be practiced same as in
Dha Dha Ti Ta
Dha Dha Tin Na.
or is it different.

Thanks in advance

Anahad,

Depending upon style, individual preference, sound production, and versatility there are several methods or techniques for playing 'te', 'ti', 're' or 'tet' - all of these methods or styles are valid. The two most common methods are "Delhi style" using only the index and middle fingers, - and "Purab" style which employs the index finger and alternatively the middle and ring fingers played together as one. Played consecutively as 'tete', or 'tite', both of these styles may also be played additionally 'forward' - index finger last, and 'reverse' - index finger first. While these two styles were once more or less gharana-exclusive, it is my observation that currently most of the best artists are well-versed in both methods or styles. My opinion is that every method has a distinct sound quality and not every method is 100% efficient all of the time. I've seen good artists change thier fingering style to suit difficult variations in the same kaida. (The great Anokehlal could play almost any composition clearly in drut laya using only his index finger.)
It is common for most beginner students to disregard the practice of playing 'tete' (or tite) - it's a "no-brainer". Not true. 'Tete' should be practiced as much as 'na' or 'tin' to achieve clarity, strength, and precise tempo. Each stroke should hit directly in the center of the shayhi and sound deliberate. The primary reason to be versatile in both forward and reverse methods of playing 'tete' in either Delhi or Purab styles is that much depends on where the fingers need to be in order to be in an efficient position to strike the next bol, say, 'na' as in "tete tedha" , "tete dhati" or "dhatete dhetete" - without falling over each other. Only after many years of concentrated practice will the fingers place themselves intuitively to suit the intended composition or phrase.
Slow, even tempo is another important factor in practicing 'tete'. Like ear training, keeping an even tempo is not an inherent talent - it must be practiced, and he best way to do that is with a metronome, or better, a nagma or lehera machine. If you cannot learn to play 'tete' with clarity, evenness and distinction, then 'tirekita' will also suffer.

I should also add that all of these statements are only my personal observations and should no way taken to contradict your teacher's instructions.

(I realize this may not completely clear up your confusion but it will become clear with concetrated practice along with your teacher's guidance.)

sincerely,

Aanaddha

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Chaz"
I think I can answer that, and Aanaddha can either affirm this or correct me:

2) tete should be played middle finger first, then index finger, and not the other way around, just like in this kaida: Dha tete Dha tete DhaDha tete Dhaghe Tina Kena.
IMHO - No "should" about it - 'tete' can be played either way. (I rather think the reverse method is actually more efficient, however for playing this Delhi kaida.)

A.

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Chaz

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Posts: 147
Reply with quote  #24 
I'm sorry Aanaddha, but with all due respect I have to disagree. You're right that there are all different styles of playing tete, but I think that for that particular kaida to retain its identity, it MUST be played with Delhi style tete. If you mix styles with that composition, the lesson is lost. It's not a question of efficiency; we both know that tabla is often not about efficiency, especially with kaidas. I believe every kaida is a lesson for the hand, and this one especially so. Reverse tete requires a completely different sort of hand balance, and it's not the one that this kaida is meant to teach.

Naturally we all seek our own style of playing, and if people want to play that kaida with reverse tete then naturally that's their choice, and I can't stop them (nor would I necessarily try, unless they were a student of mine). But my teacher always told me: learn to play it the way the old masters wanted it played, and THEN make alterations. But if, hypothetically, someone thought that playing a composition the old-fashioned way was too hard and changed it to make it easier, well, I think you'll agree with me that that's a problem.

So basically, my stance is this: if you're playing a composition from a particular gharana, play it with that gharana's style. For a purab kaida, play it Purab style. And for a Delhi kaida, play it Delhi style. This I think is the only way to discover and enjoy the subtle nuances of each particular lineage.

By the way, here's a good composition for reverse tete practice, in the form of Dhete. This one comes from Zakir. (I never formally learned this, but got it from recordings.)

DhaDha gheDhe teDhe teDha ghena Dhaghe Dhina Ghena
Dhete DhaDhe teDhe teDha Dhete Dhaghe Tina Kena

(Aanaddha: please keep in mind that my objection is only over 'dhatetedhatetedhadhatetedhaghetinakena' and nothing else.)
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anahad

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Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #25 
Chaz,Aanaddha
Guys thanks a lot for your valuable inputs. Actually about Ti Ta, I wrote it in reverse by mistake I meant it the standard way only. But as your informative discussion states at some stage I may have to learn it the other way round also ( Gee..j as if my troubles weren't enough already - just kidding).
I am formatting all the 81 Aanadha's entry in gorups so that they are easier to remember. The first few are.
Dha with one Na

2.         Na Dha Dha Dha
3.         Dha Na Dha Dha
4.         Dha Dha Na Dha
5.         Dha Dha Dha Na

Dha with two Na

6.         Dha Dha Na Na
7.         Dha Na Dha Na
8.         Dha Na Na Dha
9.         Na Na Dha Dha
10.         Na Dha Na Dha
11.         Na Dha Dha Na

Dha with one te

12.         Dha Dha Dha te
13.         Dha te Dha Dha
14.         Dha Dha te Dha
15.         te Dha Dha Dha

Dha with one te and one Na
16.         Dha Dha Na te
17.        
18.         te Na Dha Dha
19.         Na te Dha Dha
20.         te Dha Na Dha
21.         Dha te Na Dha
22.         Na Dha te Dha
23.         Dha Na te Dha
24.         Dha te Dha Na
25.         te Dha Dha Na
26.        


Two Dha and Te Te
27.         te te Dha Dha
28.         te Dha te Dha
29.         Dha te te Dha
30.        


Dha,Na and Te Te

31.         te te Na Dha
32.         te Na te Dha
33.         Na te te Dha
34.         te te Dha Na
35.        




Two Na one Te one Dha

36.         te Na Na Dha
37.         Na te Na Dha
38.         Na Na te Dha
39.         te Na Dha Na
40.         Na te Dha Na
41.         te Dha Na Na
42.        


Three Na and One Dha
43.         Na Na Na Dha
44.         Na Na Dha Na
45.         Na Dha Na Na
46.         Dha Na Na Na

I will format the rest and post the full in tabular format.
Thanks

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anahad

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Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #26 
My mistake , I dont think they need reformatting they are in a sequence to remember albeit the last bol remain same and the first one changes.
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Aanaddha

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Posts: 1,932
Reply with quote  #27 
Dear Chaz,
Of course you're correct that traditional Delhi compositions should be performed in Delhi style and traditional Purab compositions should be performed in Purab style. But that doesn't mean you can't practice in only one style, nor would playing Delhi style prohibit you from employing two-finger reverse 'tete' (index first, then middle). I think there are quite a few variations of "Delhi" kaida that you would have difficulty playing in drut laya otherwise - e.g. var. - 'Dhate tete dhate dhadha tete dhaghe thuna ghena'. As for myself, my training was in Purab style almost exclusively - I have since been focusing more on Delhi syle (they both have their limitations, too) It's helped me clear up difficulties I'd always had with strength and clarity in 'terekita' passages because my middle fingers never had to perform independent of each other.
My point is that there are many more compositions that a beginner will eventually learn that aren't necessarily 'traditional' or have a mixture of influence that will demand more dexterity than one style alone has to offer. Additionally, I believe a student who learns several procedures to the same end will have the advantage - his or her fingers will become both stronger individually and more fluid working together.
As for your own own opinions I cannot argue - as I stated earlier you should follow your teacher's instructions.

Sincerely,
A.

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Chaz

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Posts: 147
Reply with quote  #28 
Naturally you're right: these days especially you have to play all styles. Still, for the record, Delhi style finger presents me with no problem on that palta you mention: I guess it comes down to what each of us has practiced the most and is the most comfortable with. I don't suppose I can try and convince you why tete shouldn't be split into seperate bols in that kaida, can I? :wink:

Here are some fun excercises:

Dhati teta teti teta

Dhati teta teti Dhati teta teti Dhati teta

ti=middle finger, te=index finger, ta=ring finger
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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #29 


Chaz,
This is true, I think we are all strongest in that which we learn first - (which ought to be a warning to everyone of the dangers of learning from any source other than a good teacher.)




No, but go ahead anyway, I'm curious. Depending on how you choose to look at the kaida (3+3+2.... , or 2+2+2+2 ... none of the bols combinations in the variation are foreign to the theme.) In fact, I first learned the theme as 'Dhate / tedha / tete / dhadha ...' and later as 'Dhatete / dhatete / dhadha ... ' again, two very different approaches to the same composition and both IMHO equally valid.

A.

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If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Chaz

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Posts: 147
Reply with quote  #30 
yeah, let's go into this actually, because I think I'm looking at it in a different way. The way I visualize the composition is this:

Dha tete Dha tete DhaDha tete Dhaghe Tina Kena

In other words, I see tete as an indivisible bol in itself, regardless of the taal's subdivision or anything else. If you divide tete into seperate bols you inevitably start playing "Dhati Dhaghe Tina kena" which I don't think fits with the structure of this kaida. I guess, technically, you could say I subdivide this kaida as 3+3+4+2+2+2, but that's not really what I'm thinking in my head. But regardless of all that, I think you'll see that when you start making tete into "tetete" or "ti" the kaida begins to sound like a completely different kaida, and not itself anymore. Examine carefully the structures of the palta similar to the one you suggest, and the original kaida:

Dha tetete DhaDha tete Dhati Dhaghe tinakena

Dha tete Dha tete DhaDha tete Dhaghe tina kena

Can you see how, with that one change, the sound, rhythm, and mood of the kaida changes? In contrast, other changes to the theme structure that leave tete intact give us a very similar mood:

DhaDha tete Dha tete Dha tete Dhaghe tina kena

Dha tete DhaDha tete Dha tete Dhaghe tina kena

Doubling tete is naturally appropriate, and again leaves us with the same original structure, in that the body of the paltas each consist of different groupings of "dha" and "tete" with the original "dhaghe Tina Kena" cadence formula at the end:

tete tete Dha tete Dha tete Dhaghe tina kena

tete - Dha tete DhaDha tete Dhaghe tina Kena

tete Dha tete Dha tete tete Dhaghe tina kena

My basis for developing a kaida in this way is the same reason we accept these two kaidas to be similar yet different compositions:

Dha Dha ti Dha Dha Dha tin na

Dha Dha tete Dha Dha tin na

I'm sure you would agree that "tete" should not be introduced to the first kaida because it's not suggested in the original pattern. Likewise, even when technically the bol "ti" is being used in DhaDha tete, it's not grammatically correct to use it alone in that context because the focus of the kaida is on tete as a sequence.

If you listen to Zakirji play this kaida on "selects," You'll hear him play tete as a single bol throughout (excepting some playfulness at half-speed) without compromising the musicality or variation potential of the kaida. While perhaps not everyone would follow his example, I'm pleased that he sticks to tradition because this is a very Delhi way of thinking about Kaida. The rules are perhaps different elsewhere.

So there you have it: that's my kaida philosophy. :-) This...erm, might be a little much for a thread on beginner tabla, huh? ops:
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