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Feedback on nut + bolt dayan PERCUSSIVE INSTRUMENTS
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302 posts scodoha 302 posts
scodoha
Was at RadioShack and saw a lavelier wireless . . . looked interesting. I like the idea of an internal microphone. just haven't got around to it yet, working with shotguns lately. 8)
As to nut and bolt, not really tunable during performance (I like that bol -Pang!!! ). I started out on mechanical pakhawaj, always cracking my thumb joint on the dinky side. :x Recently reheaded the petite end on the double header and got rid of the metallic trip up on the tiny end. The way I did it was to lace with nylon straps (not really practicable with leather) over the bayan end posts which made for gatta tuning on the little end leaving hooks on the beefy end. Best of both for me. :wink:
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
I have a customer for whom we are installing a mike in his dayan.
Not too unusual ... but he wants us to put nut + bolt tuners on the dayan.
He was advised to do this by Kharsh Kale and another very respected tabla player. It has to do with the fact that he will be working in a live setting with a lot of electronic keyboards and guitars. But his reasons why nut + bolt tuners would be advantageous seemed vague. I'd be interested in hearing about any experiences (particularly positive ones) with this set-up. Generally we advise customers to dump the hardware and go traditional.
Cheers,
Keshav
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
Yer custom-er must've been looking at this thread and the link provided.

http://66.139.254.145/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=592

Are you gonna spray paint it for him, too?? :roll:

Be sure the mic isn't touching any of the nuts - he could be in for a shock!

A.
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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RevolvingSound 90 posts
RevolvingSound
haha
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
This setup was strongly advised by Kharsh Kale and another Tabla Beat Science alumni. Kharsh who is largely known for his skills as a DJ is also a respected tabla player who has worked on numerous projects with Zakir Hussein. That's why I'm so curious. If the guy were just some dizzy know-nothing kid from the street, I'd just pass it off as a misguided science project.
K
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zennman 134 posts
zennman
I don't see why there would be any disadvantages to a nut and bolt dayan/bayan. The few I have listened to sounded as good or even better than a traditional tabla.

Will be nice to hear from people on the forum who use nut-bolt tablas. I'd guess it would require less retuning in the middle of a song and perhaps faster and precise tuning also.

Now, putting a mic inside a dayan... that is something cool. I have been wanting to do it myself since I saw the myspace video someone posted here a while ago. I have been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I can make is such that I can intall a mic inside any tabla without having to take off the head. I shall be working on it in the next couple of weeks, so will let you know how it goes. By the way, Keshav, I shall be in New York June 20. Will be stopping by to pay you a visit and pick up a bayan head (9.5 inches).
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Annakai 44 posts
Annakai
Ive gotta say - its amazing how amplification has revolutionized music world-wide... maybe i'm just some what old school :roll:
My first impression is that nut-n-boltin it might be for accessibility. I checked out that clip and it looked a helluva lot easier than un-strapping it.
I also agree with the zennman. Tuning accuracy could be, yeah?
I dont nut-n-bolt it myself, but I thinkI could understand the reasoning.
Hopefully we'll hear from somebody who does.
When you follow your Bliss, doors will open for you where there were no doors before
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
Anyone who's repeatedly hit the inside of their na' finger on the top edge of the steel bolt a few too many times will tell you why these nut'n'bolt tablas aren't more popular - that and the joy of schlepping the sheer weight of all that metal from venue to venue. :wink:
Add a mic cable to it and you've got the added downside of not being able to tune your tabla without having to disconnecting it first.

duh ... what's the difference with standard micing a normal tabla? Then you can run it through an amp the size of a small house if you really need to?

...just a thought.

A.
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Annakai 44 posts
Annakai
A. said, "Anyone who's repeatedly hit the inside of their na' finger on the top edge of the steel bolt a few too many times will tell you why these nut'n'bolt tablas aren't more popular"

I say, "OUCH!" - I defiantly feel that one!
mhmm... good point :?
When you follow your Bliss, doors will open for you where there were no doors before
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Chaz 147 posts
Chaz
Do I detect a hint of jealousy, Anaaddha? :wink: I can't understand why else you'd be so hostile towards that tabla mic project!

Now that you mention it, Annakai, the ease-of-use must be the biggest advantage to not having straps. It must be a lot less work getting the heads on and off.
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
Chaz wrote:
Do I detect a hint of jealousy, Anaaddha? :wink: I can't understand why else you'd be so hostile towards that tabla mic project!

Now that you mention it, Annakai, the ease-of-use must be the biggest advantage to not having straps. It must be a lot less work getting the heads on and off.
 Jealous? No. Hostile, well, yes, just a little, but if people ask for advice and I'm inclined to respond I'll not be wishy-washy with my opinions. The truth is I first learned to play on a 'nut'n'bolt' instrument. At a time when someone was kind enough to let me play their traditional strap tabla and showed me how to tune it was like going from a keyboard to a real piano - (IMHO a lot more fun, too. :wink:)
Ease-of-use and accomodation, sure; I'm not against innovation and modern conveniences. but I can't help but wonder where this is all going with our appreciation of music and basic music performance practices.
One of the most popular and successful innovations in ICM has to be given to the electronic tanpura. The list of conveniences gained by replacing the fragile, hard to manage, difficult to learn, tune, and play acoustic tanpuras is too long to even begin to compile. Does it really matter to anyone that it's nearly impossible to find a competent tanpura player anymore? I don't know why but it matters to me. I'm not jealous but certainly sad at the prospects for the future.
Let's be frank, you think innovation has finally been acheived by sticking a microphone in a wooden shell with chrome harware attached to it? Don't look now but even that's going to look old-fashioned and clumsy compared to an electronic tabla machine - which, even as we speak is on it's way out in favor of midi-generated, tabla-sounding looped tracks.
Bottom-line; traditional acoustic instruments have few advantages or conveniences over their plug-it-in, turn-it-up counterparts, so, as a musician in the competitive world of contemporary music performance why even bother with them at all ? You tell me.


A.
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
p.s. I have a hunch, but could it be just maybe there's a genuinely advantageous reason that Zakir still performs with traditional tablas and a standard microphone set-up... ??
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
The majority of Zakir's appearences are in conjunction with other acoustic instruments like flutes, vocals, sarangis etc. which don't bleed into other microphones the way an electric guitar or synthesizer will. The customer is talking about working in a live environment with very loud electronic instruments ala - Tabla Beat Science. So the internal mike makes sense to me.
As to the question of the damage to one's hands from the metal tuners - I agree this makes total sense. On the other hand pretty much every world-class dholak or naal player utilizes nut + bolt tuners and don't seem fazed by it. I took dholak lessons for a short time and really, after about 6 weeks I didn't notice any more.
Re: the extra weight - yeah . . . no doubt - it sucks.

BTW "By the way, Keshav, I shall be in New York June 20. Will be stopping by to pay you a visit and pick up a bayan head (9.5 inches)."


Are you dead certain that your head is Nine and a half inches? The largest I have in stock are 9.25. Larger than that would be a custom order. Make sure you are measuring from "lip-to-lip" on your bayan shell.

Cheers,
Keshav
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
At last . . . According to Talvin Singh - the advantage is to be able quickly remove the pudi at will and move the microphone around to adjust the way it responds and also because the mics frequently get missaligned during transport and need to be reposititoned. Lastly for purposes of access to (on some of the more sophisticated models) three-way (low-cut / MS wide / MS Narrow) switch for different accoutic properties. Mystery solved.
Cheers,
Keshav
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
Keshav wrote:
The majority of Zakir's appearences are in conjunction with other acoustic instruments like flutes, vocals, sarangis etc. which don't bleed into other microphones the way an electric guitar or synthasizer will. The customer is talking about working in a live environment with very loud electronic instruments ala - Tabla Beat Science. So the internal mike makes sense to me. Keshav
K.,
I understand your position, you're bound to give the customer what he wants, by all means, you should; but you missed my point - amplified or acoustic, Z.'s set-up has always been pretty much the same. BTW - "electric guitars and synthesizers " aren't customarily mic'd - any 'bleeding' would come through the amplified monitors which can easily be turned away from the susceptible microphone aimed at an acoustic instrument. :wink:

A.
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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Anonymous 987 posts
Anonymous
Of course you make absolute sense - however guitarists and bass players will be using their own amps which are generally in close proximity of the player himself as opposed to other instruments being fed into a direct box and synth players often have tiny personal monitors near their persons . . . and when performing loud amplified music in small clubs with stages the size of a pieces of sandwich bread - with a boat-load of musicicans ganged up together - options for moving (house) monitors etc. can get very limited. Especially true in venues where there may be three or four sets by different combinations of musicians in one night. And if you want to mix the tablas in a distinct and "discreet" way in the mix without raising all the background bleed - the internal mike makes a lot of sense. I've mixed sound for a good number of bands over the years, and while I can tell you as a guitarist, I absolutely loathe the way acoustic guitars sound (even with the best internal mike) when using on-board technology - they are a godsend in terms of keeping the guitar sounding crisp and to the fore. So I can only imagine that the same will hold true for tablas. Tho the sound won't suffer the way it does with transducer type mikes. Last time I saw Ravi Shankar he used both stage and transducer mikes and the output from the transducers were akin to a tanjore veena through speakers made of wax paper. Very kazoo-like.
BTW the mics installed were Sennhieser E 604s
Cheers,
Keshav
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