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adunc069

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Reply with quote  #1 
HI, I've recently been really getting into Druphad music. Of course I've been listening to the Dagars, and I've heard a couple other names. Any suggestions outside the Dagar family?

Side topic, the changing of alap/jor between ICM and Druphad. Anybody know the where, when, why, who's about that question?

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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #2 
Just to clarify, dhrupad is ICM!! So Im not sure what your asking in the side question.

As for suggestions outside the Dagar clan, check out Ram Chattur Mallik and Siyaram Tiwari, both from a different school of dhrupad which is more closely associated with the temple chanting origins of this music compared with the more 'arty' Dagars. They are both vocalists. A great site for MP3's of they and various Dagar's music is http://sarangi.info/vocal/.

Especially check out, the Husain ud Din Dagar (Tansen Pande) alap and dhrupad in raga Todi on this site. The sound quality is crap but the performance is breathtaking. Im talking about a 70+ minute alap! You will see how much the instumental ows the ideas of alap, jor and jhalla to vocal dhrupad. There is even some pieces of sargam not associated with dhrupad for a bonus. This guy was an amazing vocalist. Check out his Bihag alap on the SAWF site, this one of the sublimest pieces of music I have ever heard: http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit11042002/musicarts.asp

Also on the sarangi site are two vocalists of the Punjab school of dhrupad, Afzal Khan and Hafiz Khan.

In the instrumental field one cannot go past Asad Ali Khan and his rudra veena.

On the sitar, I think Mushtaq Ali Khan and his school are true descendants of Tansen's dhrupad tradition, though there are big influences of khiyal also in their music.

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Surbaharplayer

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Reply with quote  #3 
If you really want to know more about dhrupad please do yourself a favour and check out the book by Ritwick Sanyal & Richard Widess:
Dhrupad; tradition and performance in Indian Music.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0754603792/sr=8-4/qid=1145699855/ref=pd_bbs_4/103-4899460-3604652?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Though Ritwick Sanyal studied Dagarbani he also pays a lot of attention to the other Banis. It comes with a CD with examples of the bani-typical techniques.
Beside my studies with Bahauddin and Ust. Fariddudin Dagar, I'm also studying with Marianne Svasek (a student of Ust. Fariduddin Dagar) and she really opened my ears for dhrupad-singing. The voice is really more flexible than a string and trying to copy her phrasing is a challenge.

Highly recommended: the Gundecha brothers (amazing how they sing together). There are several unknown guys who never recorded officially. Pushparaj Khosti is an amazing surbahar-player. Marianne lend me several live-recordings she made of him with Bahauddin Dagar; very cool to hear a Rudra Veena together with a Surbahar.
I also got my hands on several live-recordings of surbaharplayer Pt. Chandrachekar Naringrekar. He also studied with the Dagar-family.

If there people out there with recommendations of other dhrupad veena- and surbaharplayers I'd be very interested!

Remco
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Dhyana Mudra

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Reply with quote  #4 
Greatings to all,

That is a great book, Remco. I was thumbing through it a few weeks ago.

Have you all heard 'Seven Ragas in Seven Talas' and 'Resurrecting a Raga'

Both are recordings by Shubha Sankaran (surbahar/vocal), with Mohan Shyam Sharma (pakhawaj). http://www.surbahar.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh primal Shiva, Lord of Sound: Narada, Tumvuru, and Saraswati salute you:
the cosmos reverberates like the ocean- the notes sweet as honey,
are understood by those who know." - Baiju Bavra (Rag Sohini)
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adunc069

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi, what I meant was the change in the alap/jo/jhalla section. Like the difference between a Bahud-ud-din alap/jor/jhalla and a alap/jor/jhalla by liike SAhadhi Parvez or Hari Prasad. Like how did the transition come about coming from a 600 year old tradition to a blinding fast jhalla section 500 years later. So that's what I meant by the side question. But thanks for your answers, i'll check out that book. I've alreay checked out and downloaded the entire sarangi.info library. The dagars have some great ones on there. I seem to be liking the senior Dagars voices more than Wasifuddin dagar's voice. Maybe due to their age difference? Oh there's also a ragarecords mp3 site. They have a couple of Dagar examples and some great interviews with older musicians.
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Surbaharplayer

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Reply with quote  #6 
There is a distinction between vocal and instrumental dhrupad: different terms of discribing the music.... the alap, jhor jhala termonology is intrumental dhrupad. Plus: they subdivide these sections in various subsections.....It's very precise (or at least was). Don't forget that it's also a matter of instrument:a rudra veena is a pretty unwieldy beast...you just can't play as fast as on sitar....Another thing: jhalla is played with the pinky on the chikari. I've been playing with this technique now several months on surbahar: you get a very clear seperation (in your head) when playing the patterns (D C C C or C D D D) I find it easier to play thepatterns: disadvantage: you lose speed....

Remco
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Dhyana Mudra

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Reply with quote  #7 
there's alot of good stuff here...
http://www.mughalgardens.org/html/music12.html
just follow the numbers at the bottom of the page.
the whole site is wonderful.
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subbarao1

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Reply with quote  #8 
Is dhrupad really ICM? I always considered it a pre-classical style, as I consider baroque with respect to Western music.

Subbarao
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Joshua Feinberg

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Reply with quote  #9 
hi,

in many ways, Drupad is the most classical of all the styles. it is most definately NOT pre-classical.

as far as the difference between modern alap and drupad alap- sitar and sarod derive much of their alap from a drupad instrument called the bin, or rudra veena. the alap of the bin is very similar to the alap you will here Ravi Shankar, Nikhil Banerjee, or Ali Akbar Khan play. bansuri players, sarangi players, and to a certain extent the Imdad Khani gharana derive their inspiration from the newer and more floral khayal vocal style. Khayal, pioneered by Ustad Amir Khansahib, cut off most of the alap, and instead sung ati vilambit ektal. much of the exploration of the raga is done in this structure instead of the nom-tom alap of the drupadiyas. (the agra vocal gharana still maintains the drupad alap, although they are not a drupad gharana). i find it interesting that players like Vilayat Khansahib play the full alap-jor-jhalla of the drupadiyas, but do it in a much more Khayal style. i have heard that he did try to play vilambit ektal for a while, but given the lack of sustain on the sitar, it didnt work as well as it works for vocal, bansuri or sarangi.

anyway, hope that helps.

best,

jf

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subbarao1

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Reply with quote  #10 
Hi Naand Das,

I'm already familiar with everything you are saying. I guess the difference depends on how you define classical. In a broader sense Barqoue music is classical western music, but in a very specific, chronological sense it is preClassical -- since it occured before the days of the socalled Classical period of Mozart and Beethoven. (In the same way, the Romantic movement took place after the Classical period).

Doesn't dhrupad predate the "Classical period" of Indian music, during which khayal was developed? Can it not be considered a midieval or post-midieval genre? I often play tabla solos where I will play a pakhavaj tala as a preclassical piece, and then contrast it with a proper tabla tala as a classical piece.
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Joshua Feinberg

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Reply with quote  #11 
hello,

i believe what you are refering to in your message is the difference between the genre of 'classical music' and the name of the western period called 'the classical era'. if we are talking about classical music, then there can be no question weather dhrupad is classical- it is an art music, sung by highly trained musicians, and is listened to for its own sake. just like everyone from Palastrina to Mozart, to Rachmaninoff, to Chopin, to John Cage is western classical music.
if your speaking of classical music as a era, then i dont know how to answer you. there isn't a classical period in Indian music the way there was in the west. in Indian culture, antiquity justifies things, so it would be much more common for someone (if they were going to call only one classical) to call Dhrupad classical music, and Khayal not. but that wouldnt happen. its all classical. Dhrupad, Khayal, and the comparable instrumental forms are the 'classical' music of northern India. then there are lighter styles of classical music such as Thumri, Tappa, Dhun, Misra performances, Ragamala etc. these are not quite as strict as the classical music, but not quite as loose as say folk music.

i understand you're trying to draw parallels between Indian music and Western music, but in this case, i don't think an easy parallel can be made.

best,

jf

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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #12 
While I was in Varanasi, India, I met a French guy who played surbahar like Rudra Vina. Even his sitting position was like Asad Ali Khan's.

We met another friend of his who played more like RS on his instrument. I wanted to get all 3 of us together to play in our respective styles. My style is more Imrat Khan than Dhrupad & it would've been very interesting to hear us all play the same raag together.

Nick
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jaan e kharabat

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Reply with quote  #13 
It's interesting that I have often heard khiyal even refered to as a 'light' or semi-classical genre ( not that neccessarily agree with this view) when it is compared and contrasted against dhrupad. The people with this view often cite the influence of another genre of a lighter shade, namely qawwali, on the developement and technique of khiyal as obvious grounds for holding such a position.

And i have to agree with Naad Das, there are no real parrellels in Hindustani music with regards the common 'eras' of western music. Remember that the Baroque, Classical and even Romantic movements are virtually a thing of the past whereas khiyal and dhrupad (only just! ) are still alive and kicking and are the definitive genres in ICM today.

And also those epochs in the West were not exclusive to music but were a broader outlook of the Europeans in Music for sure, but also in literature and art aswell in the particular periods in question, and so we have Romantic poets, Classical painters and Baroque architecture.

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If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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subbarao1

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Reply with quote  #14 
Because of exams I don't have time to give a full response, but I still do think there are some parallels in the music periods, mostly with respect to patterns of patronage (religous, royal, connosieur, public) that impacted the nature of music and listeners.

And though the Baroque Classical, and Romantic periods may have passed (are not the definitive music styles of today) people continue to play, reinterpret, and be influenced by the music from those periods.

And I am not advocating that there is a parallel between specific periods, but I do think that Indian music did go through a defineable periodic history.

There might be a handful of dhrupad musicians out there, but I would agrue that the Baroque is to a greater extent alive and kicking.

Khayal and Dhrupad were also connected to extra-musical trends, maybe not so much with painting but definitely with poetry, spirituality, religious expression, cultural amalgamations from the near east, the nature of government and society.

Anyway back to studies.

Vivek
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Joshua Feinberg

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "subbarao1"
Because of exams I don't have time to give a full response, but I still do think there are some parallels in the music periods, mostly with respect to patterns of patronage (religous, royal, connosieur, public) that impacted the nature of music and listeners.

And though the Baroque Classical, and Romantic periods may have passed (are not the definitive music styles of today) people continue to play, reinterpret, and be influenced by the music from those periods.

And I am not advocating that there is a parallel between specific periods, but I do think that Indian music did go through a defineable periodic history.

There might be a handful of dhrupad musicians out there, but I would agrue that the Baroque is to a greater extent alive and kicking.

Khayal and Dhrupad were also connected to extra-musical trends, maybe not so much with painting but definitely with poetry, spirituality, religious expression, cultural amalgamations from the near east, the nature of government and society.

Anyway back to studies.

Vivek

yes, northern ICM has gone through periods, but i think what we were talking about was specific paralles between periods in the west and India.

i'd respectfully dissagree with you that baroque music is alive and kicking. if that were true, there would be people composing new baroque music, and the style would be evolving and expanding. that isn't the case- the only people who play it play peices that were written 300 or more years ago, thats not alive and kicking, thats artifactualization. there is a major difference between Dhrupad and early western classical because Dhrupad, like all ICM, is being reinvented every generation and more becuase of the nature of improvisation and personal interpertation and style in the music. the level that this occurs within one period of music in western classical music is signifacantly less. what happens is this; the next generation of westner classical musicians come in, and begin a new take on music, but becuase the old style was composed and written down, there was not much room to reinvent it. hence, the new generation didn't reinvent existing styles, they created new ones. thats why there is the modal era, baroque era, classical, romantic, modern, post modern, etc. . .


best,

jf

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