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Drupad vs Gharana, whats the differences? GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
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101 posts bibhas 101 posts
bibhas
Ashish,
Thanks for responding about the article and book, eagerly look fwd to it. With apologies for sidestepping the discussion on the pursuit of a higher musical goal vis-a-vis earning a livelihood (I'm with you on this, by the way, but do hope that something will change to pave way for the survival of this precious art form), may I ask you a question? (This was actually posed by a mate during an online discussion on the topic of the variant Sa).

When slighly different "sa"-s are tuned on the centre strings vs the kharaj string, does the tanpura resonate? In how many ways does a Tanpura give full resonance?

Bibhas
p.s. If you're interested, may I invite you to the ongoing discussion at this link:
http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=39336257&tid=5329127315790132150&na=2&nst=26
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
ragamala wrote:
...... my own position is one of lingering confusion on the issue. Not whether the phenomenon exists, but in reconciling the differing opinions given of how this is achieved technically.
If you try and understand the point that may be being made, this may overcome the apparent contradictions. The apparency arises from differences of expression including deficits in language and, often, different semantics onaccount of different cultural backgrounds of the speakers. If you can distil a point or arrive at an insight that tends to reconcile the apparent contradictions you know you are on the right road.

Have you heard the famous latin aphorism:
verba ita sunt intelligenda ut res magis valeat quam pereat.

Of course this has to be applied within reason!
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Dear Talasiga,

in light of your most recent post above, are we then speaking here of the overtones generated through the timbre of the voice or to actual intervals when we speak of shruti? Or can it have both meanings and still others depending on the context?
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
....... are we then speaking here of the overtones generated through the timbre of the voice or to actual intervals when we speak of shruti? Or can it have both meanings and still others depending on the context?
It is difficult for me to apply that latin aphorism to your post other than to conclude that you do not quite understand the musical meaning of "overtone"

A "shruti" is an indic word for a microtonic interval. So when the master, say Ramakant Gundecha (as an example), retunes the C Sa on a tamboura (which was relative to A440 to begin with) in a way that it sounds "lower" but is still tuned to the C relative to A440, he has fiddled with the overall timbre (customising timbre is a thing that tamboura offers par excellence over many instruments) such that the shrutic interval that is discerned is in the harmonic series particular to C Bhairavi and not to any other raag with tonic C. That in turn helps us to voice the Sa intuitively that is required by the raag.

Please see the following article, particularly its clarification of the music usage of "overtone"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_%28music%29
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
Talasiga,

with all due respect, I do understand what an overtone is. Hit a string and one is able to audibly perceive other tones related to the fundamental tone in a harmonic relationship such as the octave(tar Sa), a perfect 5th (Pa), perfect 3rd ( shuddh Ga) and perfect 4th (shuddh Ma) etc.

Interval on the other hand is something else. Two tones at A440 is the same tone, whether the timbre in the voice is generating and emphasising the Pa or the Ga partials. One at A440 and one at A441 creates an interval between the two.

But you have not clarified what and how this is reconciled in your view. How is the Sa lower when in fact it is the same? What is the mechanics of how this is achieved? And lower than what, the tamboura Sa or the Sa of another raga? Another dhrupadia here on this thread said that it is lower or higher in comparison to the tamboura Sa. That is you sing a Sa different to the Sa sounding from your tamboura.

What about scale congruent ragas such as Bhoopali and Deshkar, what harmonic principles guide the tuning of the tamboura and the intonation of the swaras here? Are swaras of different shruti with these ragas? If so why and how is this achieved?

Or is shruti merely and ornament?

These are the questions the type of questions I don't find answered in any of the posts on dhrupadic shruti theory.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
.....I do understand what an overtone is.

......But you have not clarified what and how this is reconciled in your view. How is the Sa lower when in fact it is the same? What is the mechanics of how this is achieved? .....
So if you do understand what overtone means in musical parlance didn't this answer something?:-
Quote:
(from this link which I posted just then for jaan-e-kharabathttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_%28music%29)
Variations in the frequency of harmonics can also affect the perceived fundamental pitch.
QED!
every flute harbours a muse
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
The rest of the paragraph from which you quote reads:

"Variations in the frequency of harmonics can also affect the perceived fundamental pitch. These variations, most clearly documented in the piano and other stringed instruments but also apparent in brass instruments, are caused by a combination of metal stiffness and the interaction of the vibrating air or string with the resonating body of the instrument. The complex splash of strong, high overtones and metallic ringing sounds from a cymbal almost completely hide its fundamental tone."

Is this what shruti is about, a technical fault in the instrument or the voice?
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
jaan wrote:
The rest of the paragraph from which you quote reads:

"Variations in the frequency of harmonics can also affect the perceived fundamental pitch. These variations, most clearly documented in the piano and other stringed instruments but also apparent in brass instruments, are caused by a combination of metal stiffness and the interaction of the vibrating air or string with the resonating body of the instrument. The complex splash of strong, high overtones and metallic ringing sounds from a cymbal almost completely hide its fundamental tone."

Is this what shruti is about, a technical fault in the instrument or the voice?
The full quote you provide is showing a spectrum of overtone examples from those that are musical to those that are so complex that the fundamental note is hardly discernible.

Timbre or the musical colour of a note is informed by the overtones and timbre is not a technical fault according to all major tastes and traditions.
every flute harbours a muse
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ragamala Senior Member 1,744 posts
ragamala
talasiga wrote:
If you try and understand the point that may be being made, ........

Have you heard the famous latin aphorism:
verba ita sunt intelligenda ut res magis valeat quam pereat.
Dear talasiga

Regarding these somewhat patronising comments, I would not be attempting to understand this concept without a lively and enquiring mind, and I wasn't aware discussion in the forum was best conducted under archaic law and in a dead language.

The fact of the matter is that the statements you have made are at variance with a reading of the postings on the other thread to which I have referred you and in vain I have hoped you would pursue the matter there.

In particular I would refer you to the quote from Ashish
Quote:
The two centre strings of the tanpura establish the sa, and the sa of the raga to be performed, which varies in relation to this, is tuned on the fourth string (the kharaj string). The first string, which is usually tuned to pa, ma or ni, is made to coincide with the overtone of the fourth string.

In the rudra veena, the two chikari strings establish the sa, and the sa of the main string is tuned according to the raga to be performed. The other strings are tuned to match the overtones of the main sa string. If the chikari has three strings, then the third can be tuned to the sa of the raga to be performed.
The inference is clear from this and other postings that it is the tuning of the tanpura (and by extension the pitch as well as quality of voice production) and NOT just the jawari overtones that are at the heart of the concept of the shifting sa.

This is diametrically opposite to my understanding of your take on the matter, that sa is fixed pitch. I state this as an understanding of the conflict, not as an opinion on its resolution.
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
ragamala, just because you didn't understand my post doesn't mean I was patronising.

If you understand that the fine tuning of the tamboura is not about an articulation of the tonic on the basis of just one string but an articulation that results from the COMBINED effect of the four strings FINE TUNED in a manner that the experts describe, then you may be able to appreciate and understand that there is no real contradiction in what Ramakant Gundecha and Ashish are saying and what I am trying to elucidate here including by way of providing reference material about overtones.

There is nothing in AshishJi's quote above that contradicts what I have said unless you think that the overtones are only the result of jivari or that when I speak of overtones in tamboura tuning I am only referring to the threads at the jivari.

The combined or aggregate effect of the fine tuning specifics gives rise to fundamental overtonic quality in the Sa. The jivari input does not create it but rather emphasises or enhances it. Overall this fine tuning is a DEVICE to obtain something that a trained vocalist obtains by intuitive articulation. Please remember that our vocal apparatus (and the rest that goes with it - diaphragm etc) is a lot more complex than a tamboura.

A note on contradictions amongst experts. There may be apparent (rather than actual) contradictions, such apparency the result of particular ways of expressing a point or the expression of a point being taken out of a context which would have explained the point in a non contradictory light. My suggestion is that when hearing or reading the comments of experts such as Ramakant Gundecha one needs to be mindful of the Latin dictum I provided above which is a well known one. It means that words should be taken in a way that the thing being said makes sense rather than it doesn't.

Rather than finding a contradiction in what one expert is saying when compared to another try and DEEPEN your understanding of the subject and you may find that OFTEN there is no real contradiction and confusion is overcome.
every flute harbours a muse
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ragamala Senior Member 1,744 posts
ragamala
Dear Talasiga

I am pleased to understand your position now you have backtracked on your previous assertion, specifically-
talasiga wrote:
I have tuned the tamboura and everything is set according to A440, the three C# Sa-s and the G# Pa. Guruji walks in and starts fine tuning the tamboura for the next 10 minutes at the end of which the three C# and the G# are still the very same pitch as I had them!!!!
If you now accept the experts' version that the pitch of the low sa and pa have changed that is the end of "my" failure of understanding on this.

So if we no longer have confusion regarding tanpura tuning and been tuning, where we accept that there can be two slightly different sa sounding, perhaps we can now move on to the voiced sa.

If the main tanpura sa strings are tuned to the original sa, and the other two are, say, very slightly lower, to which of these two does the vocalist pitch his or her sa?

If you accept that this is the slightly lower one and not the original, then many thanks indeed for your efforts raising the issue and I think I am happy with this.

Best
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
Thanks for pointing out the portion of my post that is upsetting the sense of what I was saying. I apologise if I caused any confusion. Just a clarification:
I did not get a chance to check the tuning of each string individually after the Guru had tuned it. When I tuned it each was relative to A440 and the overall effect of my tuning was a "power chord" dyad which gave a C# at A440. After the fine tuning by Guru the "power chord" dyad still gave that reading BUT the timbre was different. The rationale (distilled from all my posts with their links included) is that the conglomerate Sa articulated by the fine tuning, whilst no different in pitch, attracted a different timbre on account of the changed components - a change in components which was not so great as to affect the overall pitch. This is consistent with all the expert explanations of timbre being independent of pitch, length and volume but dependent on innate overtones of a material (eg, one string) or a devised enhancement of overtone by a grouping of materials (eg, more than one string some of which are variant) etc.
Quote:
So if we no longer have confusion regarding tanpura tuning and been tuning, where we accept that there can be two slightly different sa sounding, perhaps we can now move on to the voiced sa.

You are missing the Gestalt or the wholistic effect of the indic drone. The aggregate effect is not 2 Sa's the same and 1 Sa possibly different and that difference reflected in the dominant/sub dominant or leading string (the Pa/ma/Ni string). The aggregate effect is just that - an aggregate effect. It results in one Sa - a chordal Sa.

Of corse this "chordal Sa" is not voiced by simultaneous playing of the strings but in a type or arpeggiated progression. Nevertheless, on account of the strong SUSTAIN on the tamboura, a sustain enhanced by the jivari we get a chordal effect. We also get the option of string specific selection and that is the beauty of this instrument. This means that a novice in dhrupad like me can obtain a sense of the appropriate raag tonic by singing with the kharaj with the support of the all the other effects of the tamboura to complete the colour of the tonic. And a maestro of dhrupad, on the other hand, finds the overall chordal effect of the tamboura reflective of the raag specific tonic that he or she can evoke self sufficiently through his or her singing without needing the artifice of instrumental support. I hope this addresses your question:-
Quote:
If the main tanpura sa strings are tuned to the original sa, and the other two are, say, very slightly lower, to which of these two does the vocalist pitch his or her sa?
An advanced singer generates the appropriate Sa and uses the tamboura to support and enhance that Sa. A novice requires the artifice of the tamboura as a component in his or her articulation of the required Sa.

Once again thanks for pointing out that part of one of my posts that caused some confusion. I always enjoy challenges that help me to develop my communication in difficult topics about music.
every flute harbours a muse
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ragamala Senior Member 1,744 posts
ragamala
Many thanks Talasiga for the gracious nature of your post.

I may need a little time to assimilate the extra information and no-doubt valuable knowledge you have imparted and shared.

best wishes
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
talasiga wrote:
An advanced singer generates the appropriate Sa and uses the tamboura to support and enhance that Sa. A novice requires the artifice of the tamboura as a component in his or her articulation of the required Sa.
Excellent observation... may further apply to instrumentalists !? Yes, no?
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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talasiga 255 posts
talasiga
The tamboura and other instruments are different to the human voice and a consideration of the degree to which an instrument can articulate particular shades of Sa as well as the human voice can articulate (which the voice does intuitively through a kind of psycho-physical spontaneity without artifice - that is without mechanical device ) would require consideration of the nature of the instrument and the aptitude and sensibility of the player.

At the "high end" we have fiddles like a dilruba or a viola, with their great potential for different shades of voicing even by playing the one string (changes in bow attack), the "aggregate effect" instruments such such as the tamboura and veena when finely tuned, the flute (hardly as versatile as a fiddle but somewhat amenable to different shadings on account of embouchure variations) and the "low end" concert harmonium or the piano.
every flute harbours a muse
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Aanaddha 1,932 posts
Aanaddha
"An advanced singer generates the appropriate Sa and uses the tamboura to support and enhance that Sa. A novice requires the artifice of the tamboura as a component in his or her articulation of the required Sa."

...As this may (or may not) possibly pertain equally to instrumentalists I was contemplating more in regard to technique than mechanics. i.e.; the invocation ("generation") of Sa indirectly, apart from the instruments' tuning and timbre??
e.g.; the ability to perform lengthy taans of a given raag without touching Sa??
If he could sing, and nature to accompany him, what need would he have for an instrument?
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