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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
As they say in the old country: you cannot get a leopard to change his spots.
Lack of ethics, lack of a long term view, lack of deep reverence and respect
for what one does and for the customer (who after all ENABLES us to do
what we do): all of these things make it IMPOSSIBLE to carry on business.

It becomes too time consuming to even deal with. And as others have
indicated here, this seems to be hard-wired into the Indian Genetic Code.
I have always said, when you shake hands with an Indian businessman, count
your fingers after. Sad, counter productive, embarrassing, pathetic, and dumb.

In extremis. I pray for a better day.
I've tried to stay away from this topic, as far as commenting goes, however it has reached a point where I simply can not halt my input.

Suffice to say that I deal with a variety of Indian folks from all walks of life on a daily basis. While some of their practices put a burr in my saddle, I can say that I find it appalling that someone would infer that all Indians are wired the same way, is about the most racist and bigoted thing I've heard on this forum.

Should one infer then, that all Americans are hard-wired to take drugs, carry guns and shoot each other and have million dollar houses and an over-flowing bank accounts, while dancing wildly about to rap music?

Since attending my Temple, my life has changed 180', mostly by simply being in the company of many wonderful and kindred spirits. Most of the Indian folks that I come in contact with are devoted and loving people, soft and gentle folks. A few, just a few, can be liars, wheelers and dealers as well as under miners, but I hardly find this written into everyone's genetic code.

I've heard many a story about dealing with makers of these instruments, many of them being entertaining and even laughable. But to begin to paint everyone by the same broad brush stroke really pushes the limit of sterotyping.

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arnabsarod

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
It becomes too time consuming to even deal with. And as others have
indicated here, this seems to be hard-wired into the Indian Genetic Code.
Deeply offensive and in poor taste, Mr. Fosse! I truly respect your accomplishments as an instrument designer and luthier, but this is just so totally uncalled for.

However, you got me stirred up enough to send a menacing, threatening email to R A Sitarmaker, threatening to instigate a large-scale boycott by all music schools in Bombay and Delhi, and/or litigation in the Indian consumer court (yes, such a thing does exist in India, and is actually very effective). If Jan has retained his Western Union documentation, the best thing would be to get in touch with a consumer advocate in India and slap a consumer lawsuit against Ayub.

If forum members indeed care enough to not just sit around indulging in Injun-bashing, why not just bombard Ayub's email box with letters demanding a resolution?

Sincerely,

Arnab Chakrabarty
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yak.a.co

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Reply with quote  #18 
I am amazed that someone used my complaint connected with one particular person, or what more concerning one particular situation to ridicule the whole nation. With full respect to Fosse in this case I have to fully agree with OM GUY and arnabsarod. Btw arnabs suggest about bombarding Ayub with emails could be helpful. I do apreciate all your wellwishing, but if you could spend a little time maybe just to write him you are aware of what he did it may at least give him the imagination that this is not just my problem, that many people internationaly know about it and are watching what he will do. His eamils are: rasitarmaker.sitar@gmail.com, contact@rasitarmaker.com and rasitarmaker@gmail.com. You may use all three
Thank you all very much
Jan
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mayer141

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hi Jan,

I'm so sorry to here about your theft...because that is what it is! I shall email him and warn the UK sitar community, I must admit I would never give money without having the instrument in hand and even then I've been ripped off! (over 14 years ago by Rikkhi Ram).
I hope you get your money back but I have a feeling that without going there personally and threatening him with electric shock therapy you might never see that 500USD
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povster

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Reply with quote  #20 
Yes, the time for All India Bashing is long passed. Hate to see a thread locked or sanitized.

I have sent Ayub a message asking about this on his Facebook account, as he occasionally sends me messages or chats in Facebook.

I am sure he will be hearing from others as well.

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yak.a.co

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Reply with quote  #21 
Thank you povster and mayer141. Lets see if it will help the situation somehow. Surely, the main point is that nobody will ever have the same trouble. So go forward, inform as many people as possible to be aware that he is not just rebadging the crap now with his name but also doing such things as in my case with custom order. Jan
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Sitarfixer

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Reply with quote  #22 
Now we're getting some positive action going here. This is all good. The idea that such a situation could get resolved is rather exciting. Regarding "Fossesitar"'s India bashing rant - yeah, it's overstated. I have to admit I've thought the same thing myself though. You have to live there to understand the inspiration for such a rant. As I've told many people, I now understand how the blacks in Chicago, Detroit and elsewhere must have felt during the Eisenhower administration. At every turn while living there, I became a target while doing just about anything. Getting my moped gassed, paying an electric bill, getting groceries, whatever - I got nailed. My dealings with RA finally dissolved through the same kind of treatment as the original subject of this topic. Very sad but still the way it is. I finally had enough and started what turned out to be a two year battle with excess red tape, redundant police hassles, bribary to the tune of $$$$ and even forgery to get out of there. Once you actually LIVE there and not just visit as a tourist, then you'll get the picture. Back in the 60's, we were all Brothers and Sisters against a common enemy - Nixon, ROTC, pigs on campus and the Viet Nam war. One would have thought that the 9/11 thing would have had the same effect. I suppose reality TV, monday night football and the general dumbing down of the population keeping us all right where we're supposed to be is keeping any positive social / cultural growth in check. Brilliant plan and working well. Anyway, I'm most pleased to see positive action being taken here. These eMail addresses will be put to good use. Note also that in Miraj, all of the shops are related in one way or another. You can bet bet your neighbors dog Ayub is well aware of what's going on here by now. I can hear "Yeah yeah. Sure sure" being changed to "Oh crap". It's media blitz time, folks. Let's get those eMails going ! That's where I'm heading right now.
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yak.a.co

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Reply with quote  #23 
Dear Tony,
thank you again for your support! Although not remembering the sixties, the world situation and its development since then seems the same to me ... And surely, if there is a posibility to solve the stolen sitar thing this way, it will be amazing. I also have something in my head forcing me to think, that this forum, or better to say all the people in here, will be very hepful in future when someone is ordering instruments. I mean in the sense that if the particular maker is fully aware forumites all around world are watching the order development untill samples by the owner are posted, he will have maybe less courage to cheat and to make things not properly.
Jan
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #24 
I stand corrected, and I certainly did not intend to denigrate an entire race. There are high-minded people everywhere, I always take people as individuals and do not prejudge.

Thank you Tony the K for coming somewhat to my defense, yes one must live in India and see the immense and inbred corruption to understand the (excessively) broad brush I used. To all Indians with ethics, and to all on this forum who I may have offended my sincere apologies.....

And for the rest: if the shoe fits, wear it. I do NOT sit in judgement nor do I place myself above anyone in the sub-continent or here. I have not always excercised the best judgement in business and have attempted to learn from my many mistakes in business and in life of which this obviously is one.

So, onward and upward. I am not predudiced and racial profiling is not in my makeup. Thank you Pov and the other moderators for allowing this thread to continue past my lapse in judgement : ) : ) GF
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povster

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Reply with quote  #25 
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn201/povster/thmbup-lite.jpg
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Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official bread of ICM
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arnabsarod

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "fossesitar"
I stand corrected, and I certainly did not intend to denigrate an entire race. There are high-minded people everywhere, I always take people as individuals and do not prejudge.
Thanks for clearing the air, Greg. During his time in Pune, Tony and I have had many phone conversations about the corruption and "skin tax" he's had to deal with almost every yard of the way. If your experiences in India have been similar, your frustration is justified. Unfortunately, many upright and decent Indians have to go through the same grind each day of their lives. Some crack, but most make it through without sacrificing their values.

Arnab
p.s.: Update - Can't reach any of RA Sitarmaker's numbers. Have they stopped answering international calls? Any others try yesterday?
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povster

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Reply with quote  #27 
Here's the deal. We should be talking music here. Maybe another forum about any one of myriad countries' scams would be more useful to post one's feelings on.

I am sure that many such stories can be told, about many countries. I am also sure that many positive stories can be told. But we are here for one main purpose...music. Understanding it, learning it, sharing it and our experiences.

So let's focus more on that.

In Jan's case, he had an issue and people are seeking to help him out. That is fine. But broad strokes of a people is not fine here. It diminishes the boards and diminishes the members of these boards who are members of whatever peoples are being discussed.

So let's keep the focus on what David made this forum for. A love of music and a desire to learn and share.

Thank you.

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Dasani - the official bottled water of ICM
Panini - the official bread of ICM
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pepperman

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Reply with quote  #28 
I am surprised and saddened by what I read here. In a recent past, I've ordered two instruments from Ayub that I have prepaid and they were shipped to France more or less in time. I just mailed him that it would be better for him and his family to straighten out the situation. I am sure there is an explanation and hope it will come with the instrument.
Pepper
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fossesitar

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Reply with quote  #29 
Well said Povster, about focusing on music, and on the positive. Very well said.

As for me, I feel like a dumb politician who opens mouth before engaging brain.
One does not have to go to India to find an appalling lack of business ethics in
fact our own country (USA) has recently set a new low for business ethics, far
surpassing anything that has been mentioned here for outrageous abuse. IMHO,
the biggest heist in the history of planet earth has been pulled off without a
single person going to jail, or even one single indictment. Truly appalling.

Does this make all Americans crooks? Of course not, that is absurd. I deeply
regret that my careless words could be interpreted as a blanket condemnation.

I have shared many of my positive experiences here, I trust my Indian friends on
this forum and elsewhere know how much I revere this music and the ethical
standards that have made it possible - all of which originated in India. As I said,
I pray for a better day, both in India and here in the good ol' US of A. : ) : ) GF
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OM GUY

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Reply with quote  #30 
You're right, Fosse, in the regard that one need not go to India to see the results of a changing world where most everyone is forced to eat on a shrinking budget.

The attractiveness to build 3 cheap instruments that will sell on ebay, as opposed to building 1 of quality, seems to be the trend, coupled with the fact that there also seems to be a dwindling number of craftsmen interested in building and fewer coming up thru the ranks to learn the craft, from the younger generation.

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Let's hope 2016 is less violent and that people discover the soothing influence of ICM. Hari OM!
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