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Luistabla

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi everyone

I have here a serious question that i would like to discuss and maybe get a definite direction for this Dheli kaida:

|DhaDha tite | DhaDha tuna | TaTa tite | DhaDha Dhina

You know, i
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pbercker

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Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #2 
Hi everyone

I have here a serious question that i would like to discuss and maybe get a definite direction for this Dheli kaida:

|DhaDha tite | DhaDha tuna | TaTa tite | DhaDha Dhina

You know, i

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My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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Acelga

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Reply with quote  #3 
From my humble experience, as far as I know.
This is a Kaida like Pascal said, from the Banaras gharana. At least that
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #4 
The Khaida Ed Hanley refers to in the anecdote, and the kaida played on Anindo
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My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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Mr Kalish

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Reply with quote  #5 
The two kaidas are similar, but my teacher is adamant that they are not two versions of the same kaida, but two different kaidas, and I've been taught to play different paltas for each. (There are, of course, patterns in common between the two.)
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pbercker

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mr
The two kaidas are similar, but my teacher is adamant that they are not two versions of the same kaida, but two different kaidas, and I've been taught to play different paltas for each. (There are, of course, patterns in common between the two.)
I essentially agree that one can easily look at them as two seperate entities in their own right, though I would imagine that the paltas for each could easily be adapted for the other by interchanging "te te" with "terekite" and vice-versa? But I'm not absolutely certain about this ... certainly they will feel and sound quite different from each other, but my jerry leake book has variations for both kaidas but mostly with nothing more than exchanging "terekite" from "tete", even the suggested tihai is otherwise the same (except for "terekite").

although one variation with "tete" goes like this:
Quote:
dha dha te te te te te te
dha dha te te dha dha ti na
ta ta te te te te te te
dha dha te te dha dha dhi na
It's not clear to me that straightforward substitution with "terekite" would work here or not.


Pascal

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Mr Kalish

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Reply with quote  #7 
Interestingly, Pascal, I was taught to play the palta you mention, Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt. I think substitution does "work" between these two kaidas, with a different effect in each case, but simple substitution, while an interesting exercise, risks neglecting the role of tradition in defining a kaida. So while I do play Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt I generally won't play Dha Dha trkt Dha Dha Dha Dha, not because that palta wouldn't work musically, but because it is not among the paltas I was taught to play with this kaida. Of course, some musicians may play this palta, and there is nothing wrong with that, but as the selection and order of paltas define much of the feel of the kaida as a composition, I like to stick close to what I have been taught.
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Luistabla

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mr
but as the selection and order of paltas define much of the feel of the kaida as a composition, I like to stick close to what I have been taught.
That is exactly whati wanted to hear Mr kalish!! because you can have all the method of paltas and vistars, but that sequence that translates into FEELING is the most important thing, isn
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pbercker

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Posts: 1,451
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mr
Interestingly, Pascal, I was taught to play the palta you mention, Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt. I think substitution does "work" between these two kaidas, with a different effect in each case, but simple substitution, while an interesting exercise, risks neglecting the role of tradition in defining a kaida. So while I do play Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt I generally won't play Dha Dha trkt Dha Dha Dha Dha, not because that palta wouldn't work musically, but because it is not among the paltas I was taught to play with this kaida. Of course, some musicians may play this palta, and there is nothing wrong with that, but as the selection and order of paltas define much of the feel of the kaida as a composition, I like to stick close to what I have been taught.
"tradition" is a two edged sword I fear. On the one hand, when used wisely, it can be an indispensable guide to the wealth of knowledge accumulated by those who have gone before us. But beware the sometimes dead hand of tradition that seeks not so much to light up the way for others but seeks only to jealously guard its treasure trove and impose a stultifying and blind obedience that it does not deserve.

One of my favorite tabla players, Pandit Aloke Dutta is well aware of this and issues the following warning in his tabla book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aloke
First, a pupipl can achieve the the highest level of proficiency with dedication, discipline and devotion. Second, a Guru may be shrewd, exploitative, partial, and capable of sacrificing anyone or anything to accomplish his ends. This kind of behavior still exists in modern India. Some gurus keep the secrets of their mastery for their sons, sons-in-laws or favorite one, but, as they do no want to admit that, they teach devoted pupils in such a way as to deceive them into believing they are receiving complete information (Dutta, page 170)
More generally, According to Aloke Dutta, it's worth noting that in the "olden days" gharanas did not mix in the sense that students were discouraged from learning and/or playing in any other styles than their own gharana taught them. But it was ultimately some of the very greatest musicians (Ustad Ahmedjan Thirkwa among others) who gingerly broke with the strict adherence to one gharana or another, and began mixing and blending styles "creating a distinct sound or new compositions in a new style. Some of these great musicians are Ustad Ahmedjan Thirkwa, Ustad Habibuddin Khan, and Pandit Jnan Prakash Ghosh" (Dutta, page 171). {Note that Jnan Prakash Ghosh was also Aloke Dutta's tabla teacher!)

To my way of thinking, this is essentially an invitation to experiment and see what works and what does not!


Pascal

__________________
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.
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arhatontabla

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Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "pbercker"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mr
Interestingly, Pascal, I was taught to play the palta you mention, Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt. I think substitution does "work" between these two kaidas, with a different effect in each case, but simple substitution, while an interesting exercise, risks neglecting the role of tradition in defining a kaida. So while I do play Dha Dha trkt trkt trkt I generally won't play Dha Dha trkt Dha Dha Dha Dha, not because that palta wouldn't work musically, but because it is not among the paltas I was taught to play with this kaida. Of course, some musicians may play this palta, and there is nothing wrong with that, but as the selection and order of paltas define much of the feel of the kaida as a composition, I like to stick close to what I have been taught.
"tradition" is a two edged sword I fear. On the one hand, when used wisely, it can be an indispensable guide to the wealth of knowledge accumulated by those who have gone before us. But beware the sometimes dead hand of tradition that seeks not so much to light up the way for others but seeks only to jealously guard its treasure trove and impose a stultifying and blind obedience that it does not deserve.

One of my favorite tabla players, Pandit Aloke Dutta is well aware of this and issues the following warning in his tabla book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Aloke
First, a pupipl can achieve the the highest level of proficiency with dedication, discipline and devotion. Second, a Guru may be shrewd, exploitative, partial, and capable of sacrificing anyone or anything to accomplish his ends. This kind of behavior still exists in modern India. Some gurus keep the secrets of their mastery for their sons, sons-in-laws or favorite one, but, as they do no want to admit that, they teach devoted pupils in such a way as to deceive them into believing they are receiving complete information (Dutta, page 170)
More generally, According to Aloke Dutta, it's worth noting that in the "olden days" gharanas did not mix in the sense that students were discouraged from learning and/or playing in any other styles than their own gharana taught them. But it was ultimately some of the very greatest musicians (Ustad Ahmedjan Thirkwa among others) who gingerly broke with the strict adherence to one gharana or another, and began mixing and blending styles "creating a distinct sound or new compositions in a new style. Some of these great musicians are Ustad Ahmedjan Thirkwa, Ustad Habibuddin Khan, and Pandit Jnan Prakash Ghosh" (Dutta, page 171). {Note that Jnan Prakash Ghosh was also Aloke Dutta's tabla teacher!)

To my way of thinking, this is essentially an invitation to experiment and see what works and what does not!


Pascal
I also do wonder sometimes if there is any sort of discipline regarding the paltas or any variation (both creating and playing). I realized that kaidas should be played in strict discipline in order to feel the melody that particular kaida has to offer. Thanks!! But besides that, to me playing should be spontaneous and distinct. And for this, one should regularly experiment with the sounds and the compatibility of different bols from gharanas with each other to form own style of playing..I haven't really got chance to listen to many of the tabla maestros mentioned here. I think i should listen more to get closely accustomed with tabla playing and the different styles of playing..
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