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el presidente

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Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi everybody,

I've been practicing Dhiredhire/tiretire things lately. Again. I just have a problem that eats my concentration when playing. My dayan keeps moving to the right when playing Tiretire with faster speed. It also gets tilted to same direction, which I need to correct constantly. Very annoying.
The dayan I've been using now is 5,1" and is not the heaviest but not light either. Also I prefer to play sitting on a half inch thick rubber foam mat (the ones you use when camping with a tent). This is more friendly for my ankles. Also so far I feel the need to put a bit weight on my palm to get even mediocre Tiratira sound.

Do you have any advice? Is this a common problem (with smaller drums)? Do I just have to live with it? Do I put too much weight on my hand? Should I try to play on a thinner mat/carpet? Should I mount some rought material under my tabla rings?

I hope to find some help here. Thank you very much!

-M
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Tablatastic

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi El Presidente

Iam no expert but sharing what I have been taught.

When playing Dhire Dhire, I have been taught to make sure the wrist is loose with no tension and most of the movement comes from the wrist.

Loose the weights as I have been told that these things dont help a lot just lots, lots and lots of practice without taking any shortcuts.

This may help as I have practiced Dheere Dheere on 5inch tabla its challenging but loosening the wrist with no tension helps a lot.

I hope this helps like I say Iam no expert just sharing what I have been taught.

Be good to hear experiences from others too.
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el presidente

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Reply with quote  #3 
Tablatastic, thank you very much for your effort, aswering my question!

I will try your advice. Intuitively I have been aware that the loose wrist, and lighter touch, would be the only way to the ultrafast speed the knowledged people play these things. Just haven't found it yet. Back to work then...

Anyway, if anybody has had problems with moving DAYAN, I'd like to hear some opinion & advice. Thanks.

-M
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rch

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Reply with quote  #4 
I used to have similar problem until I designed a slightly larger ring and that helped a lot. I am not sure if that is an issue in your case.
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VNO Design

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Reply with quote  #5 
Most top level players brace the Dayan with their knee when shredding DhireDhire at faster speeds. All technique aside, it's still a forceful stroke that has quite a bit of energy to it. Give it a try! It's a simple solution and allows you to play the stroke better because the Dayan is held more ridgid.

I've thought about designing different rings that will hold better and have found some solutions, but prices are high and I'm not sure they would be worth the upfront expense for me to develop.

Best wishes,

-David

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Pujadaddy

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Reply with quote  #6 
I agree with what the others have said here, it's always technique first. Are you learning from someone who has mastered the technique their self? Are they a great teacher as well as a player? I sat in front of a world class player for five years and dhirdhire just did not click for me. I could execute it... kind of, but had the same problem (as well as others). I then took two skype lessons from another great TEACHER / player and something about the way he explained it just clicked conceptually. The moving around problem went away after that. Case in point, you should learn this technique from a teacher, and not all great players are great teachers. Maybe try some skype lessons with a different teacher if you already have one. If you don't have one, you really should get one. It's an unnatural and mysterious movement in the beginning and often we have a tendency to create all kinds of problems for ourselves, but when executed properly each stroke should work to actually hold the drum in place (even with a forceful stroke) making the movement problem an almost non issue.

This was the first exercise that I was given that started helping to turn things around. Use a loose wrist, and exaggerate the dhiredhire strokes from side to side. Eventually fatigue helped it fall into more of a natural motion for me. Also, a big help for me was being told to keep my thumb tight to my hand (as opposed to spread out) while keeping your wrist loose. Other players may disagree, but this was a game changer for me.

dhiredhire dhiredhire |keteteke dhiredhire | keteteke dhiredhire | dhiredhire keteteke

Or try something in tisra jati...

tak - 1 - dhire |dhire keteteke | dhiredhire dhire | dhire keteteke |
dhiredhire dhire | dhire keteteke | dhiredhire dhire | dhire keteteke |

Beyond technique, I had one teacher who said he liked to keep his gatta hammered down so that when the gatta came in contact with the rings it left the drum in an optimal tilted position. I find this interesting but impractical 100% of the time depending on tuning and where the pudi/ straps are in their pulling cycle. Another consideration is wood. I have a sheesham dayan that sits there like a tank, yet my lighter weight mahoghany dayan of slightly larger size will move very easily... Yet I can hand that same tabla to a great player and they'll shred on it without it moving so again technique is most important IMHO. The knee technique in my experience seems to be composition specific. I have sat in front of Yogesh and watched him use it on diredire for one composition and not at all on the very next one. There are plenty of examples you can find on Youtube of great technique absent the knee so I would be careful not to rely on this as in order to perfect a strong fluid technique you actually want the feedback that the dayan movement is giving you. I tried myself to develop "a better tabla ring" but I think it is almost subjective to a point based on multiple factors (player, technique, style, dayan size). In the end like RCH, I settled on using a larger ring which became my preference. Great conversation.
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VNO Design

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Reply with quote  #7 
The thumb sticking out, or being tight to the hand is primarily a traditional and sound driven choice. The two techniques will give a completely different sound when played correctly. Arguably the best excecution and sound of the DhireDhire stroke today is played by Pandit Swapan Chaudhuri, and he is a "thumb-out" teacher. Ustad Zakir Hussain is a "thumb-in" proponent and listening to the two of them play a DhireDhire composition will give a good comparison although they both have different all-around technique anyhow. The undisputed legend and pinnacle of the stroke is Pandit Anoke Lal Mishra who was also a "thumb-out" player.

If any of us can get even CLOSE to their ability with the stroke it would be an amazing achievement. Practice slowly and carefully with proper guidance from a respected teacher. If you're making the Dayan shift to one side even at slow speeds, then your hand is imbalanced and should be corrected before playing faster. I have also witnessed the professionals sometimes brace with the knee and sometimes not, depending on how furious they intend to play the stroke, for what duration, and the composition chosen. It would reason that if the top players use this technique, then some Dayan shifting is unavoidable which was really my only point.

Happy practicing,

-David

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Pujadaddy

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Reply with quote  #8 
Well said, and great points David.
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el presidente

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Reply with quote  #9 
Hi!

It's been a while since I've logged in here. Been busy also with practicing.
I've got some great advices here for my question. Thank you everybody!

Soon after the first advices, I kept practicing, testing, and analysing. I made some observations.
1.) It all comes to correct playing technic! The type of gear comes second. I kept practicing, and my guess is that now I've got a step forward towards the correct way to play Dhiredhire/Tiretire. My Dayan is not sliding as much, or nearly at all, anymore!
2.) Having a good teacher makes learning faster and easier and saves your brainwork. And yes, some of you guessed it right, currently I don't have a teacher. But I'm grateful I found some answers here.
3.) In that particular Dayan I was using, the thread under the kinar, was a bit too thick. It prevented my palm to touch enough the syahi. As a result, the Tiretire stroke often included some unwanted open tone. A thinner thread helped me to use a little less weight on my palm!
At the moment I'm just trying to find the right weight on my palm to gain both the speed and the proper sound.

But all in all, it takes A LOT of practice. Thanks!
-M
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