INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #1 
This may be an interesting topic.

Which Ragas allow motifs with both komal and shuddha swaras next to each other?
The examples I know are Devgandhari and Jog.
Also, Lalit has weird MA movements.

Are there any other important Ragas with chromatic motifs?

Also, are there any Ragas which employ the bending of the same note in a small shruti step before the next motif, like enharmonic movements?

This would be interesting also because these melodic movements existed in Ancient Greek music, which one can hear in the ragamala-like Delphic hymns from 138 BC. (actual preserved notation on marble).

If chanted in the way performed here, it reminds me of vedic chant, just with more complex melodies.
The recording of the Second Hymn features a reconstruction of a water powered organ, and other reconstructed instruments like the aulos (similar to Pungi in sound).


0
barend

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,089
Reply with quote  #2 
There are ragas that use both komal en shudh versions of the same note. Like G and komal G in Jog or Pilu. Or R and komal R in Bhairavi.
Or Ma and tivra Ma in Shudh Sarang. But it's not in a chromatic way. In Bhairavi for example you never use komal R and shudh R directly after each other without another note in between. It will be more like SRG, S(komal)RS for example.

Sometimes you hear komal G and shudh G in a row in Jog but not all musicians do that.

Lalit is the only raga with a short (real) chromatic movement as far as I know (tivra M, shudh M, shudh G). And Bhairav has shudh N, S, komal R. Miyan ki Todi has tivra M, P and komal D. But not directly after each other.

But all this is not chromatism in the western meaning.

Not sure what you mean by enharmonic movements?
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #3 
As I said, I already know Jog, and here's a Sikh Hymn with shuddh and komal in a row, which seems to be an important feature.




So Lalit and Devgandhari are the only Ragas with important Shuddha-Komal-Movements it seems...


Enharmonic movement means: a note is bent to another shruti step, to connect two halves of a weird raga. I have had the impression that Jaijaiwanti is such a Raga, because it connects two distant melodic planes - but I really don't know.

Here's an example of Diatonic, Chromatic and Enharmonic music from the Renaissance, played on a harpsichord that enables the player to use 24 shrutis in polyphony, thus achieving pure intervals. (an invention of the composer!)



0
barend

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,089
Reply with quote  #4 
Wow sounds really weird that last video!
0
Nick Proctor

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 201
Reply with quote  #5 
YES In the middle it shifts up a half sruti or so making it sound as if someone has ever so slightly increased the speed of, say, a 'normal' analog recording ?!!?!?
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #6 
Welcome to the weird world of "Ancient Music reduced for modern practice", the theoretical work by Vicentino who composed this stuff.

I was asking about Jaijaiwanti, because it is possible to overlay the Sonata "Enharmonica" which shifts between g minor and b minor (!).

Except when quick parts mix with the slow strings (sounds okay but weird), the voice seems very fitting to the harmonies.

0
barend

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,089
Reply with quote  #7 
I don't think jaijawanti or any other raga has anything to do with the above. Interesting topic nonetheless but maybe you look too far. Are you a musicologist?
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #8 
Yes, I am, but isn't everyone who thinks about music? :)

I am working on finding proof of Indian Influence on Europe in the 16th century.

So far, some pretty interesting musical correlations have come up (though some people refuse to see any). Here's the current playlist of combined music (no cuts or tempo changes, just aligned) - if you are interested.



0
barend

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,089
Reply with quote  #9 
Nothing wrong with being a musicologist of course. I have a degree myself.

Most of the ragas you mention in your playlist have close relation to the church modes. Like Dorian is Bhimpalasi or Lydian is Yaman or Darbari Kanada is Aeloian for example.
You also mention pentatonic ragas like Megh. Did they use purely pentatonic modes in Renaissance music (think they sometimes in Gregorian music)? I wasn't aware but I am not an early music specialist.
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #10 
Yes, many of the modes are similar to Raga thaats.

But as Ravi Shankar put it: Raga is not a scale, not a mode.

But - here it comes - Mode in the 16th century is not just a scale.

The problem with modes is that there are only 8 or 12 (like Glareanus established).
This can certainly not reflect even all the Ragas that use "normal" scales.
Yet, later 16th century music uses different models on the same mode. (Earliest modern usage: Paris Chansons)
There are different cadence points and one can say these reflect different Vadi and Samvadi concepts.

Bhimpalasi is not just Dorian. It is a special architecture of the Dorian scale.
What about Kafi and Dhanaseri, and Bageshree, or Bahar? All in the "Dorian Thaat".

But Thaat is not Raga.
Here we encounter the importance of leading notes and Vadi/Samvadi, and "Musica Ficta" (changing to komal ni, ga etc. or tivra ma to lead to the Vadi or Samvadi from above or below).

In Europe of the late 16th ct., the concept of "authentic" and "plagal" modes changes into something different, leading to the concept of "major" and "minor".
But depending on the "key" there are different harmonic plans for C major, G-Major, G-Minor, F major etc. - like different Ragas until Europeans discovered the possibilities of modulation and ultimately the possibility of base-changing (Sonata architecture of the 18th century).

I have yet to categorize all this (very exhausting as 16th century theorists sometimes try to use the Greek system to explain modes with tetrachords, and others use the Gamut hexachord system), but it seems that Indian Ragas have been used - lifted from Gypsy musicians or from Tansen himself, these are the questions to answer (both seems possible when looking at the history of European presence in India, or Indian presence in Europe).
Some people still have a hard time accepting the question, because there is no mentioning of Indian music other than descriptions of Hindu festivities until for example Marin Mersenne depicted and described Indian instruments (even Rudra Veena).
But the church would certainly have been wary of the music of idol-worshippers, so Jesuits, despite their long presence, never mentioned any research on music until the late 17th century (some findings by Lisa Herrmann-Fertig in her thesis which is currently in the course of publication).

This question requires an open mind, and I am planning to prove at least the musical similarities in regards to harmonic tonality, formal aspects and style.






0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #11 
PS: Also, I have found many pieces which use rhythmic cycles and within these cycles great freedom of imagination - exactly like Tala.
Even today's Indian drum practice shows great similarity to the rhythmic proportions and variations used around 1600.

The 17th century European music sees many complex Talas based on 10 or 12 beats, also combinations.
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #12 
PPS:

Also, there are European pieces in outlandish modes, like this Fantasy by John Bull which (according to an Indian musician on reddit) seems to be based on Sindhu Bhairavi, which could be one of the models used by Gypsies.
The Fitzwilliam Virgial Book, the source of the unique piece, can be linked to the Tregian family, which had ties to Portuguese Jesuits.



Curiously, also a new "sound" was used on Harpsichords of John Bull's time and place:
"arpichordium". It is the same sound production like a tanpura.


0
barend

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,089
Reply with quote  #13 
And what about pentatonic modes in early music or renaissance?

Yes I know that ragas are not the same as scales and modes, was just giving an example that for instance Bhimpalasi has the same tones as the Dorian mode. So therefor there can be some overlapping phrases. What do think you is the reason the almost all the ragas you mention have the same notes or resemblance to the church modes? If Indian music influenced 16th western music why wouldn't you see more 'Indian flavored' (for western ears) ragas like for example Bhairav or Todi or Multani in 16th century western music?

And could it be that Indian music was influenced by 16th century western music (so the other way around). Just some thoughts.
0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #14 
Well, this is an interesting question.

It is not that the 16th century is devoid of outlandish Ragas.
There are Jaijaivanti pieces, like this Fantasy:

or this Instrumental Canzon:


The reason may be that the more closely the music of India resembled the European modes, the easier it was to understand the "fractal" principle of Raga.
But using pythagorean tuning in polyphony has its limits - especially when trying something like Todi or Multani.
That is why Indians have shrutis.

The concept of shruti, and tuning, has been greatly discussed in the 16th and 17th century. All solutions were tried, even equal temperament (Galilei's dad recommended this).
So in order to adapt Multani, one has to find a key in which it can be pleasantly played.

Pentatonic Ragas could be used, but made sampurna in execution. Dhanaseri is a very pentatonic raga (seems this is the origin), and it is used in Europe.

The first step of any adaptation though is form and style. This can be traced further back. The 16th century changes from Cantus Firmus based music to cyclical models like Passamezzo, Romanesca, and later Ciacona, Passacaglia etc.
In the 18th century it seems that all Raga like cyclical variation is called "Ciacona".

The Italian Ciacona model used by Monteverdi and others is based on an Ektal "Gaud Sarang", in Opera it is also used in vilambit.


0
Tristan von Neumann

Member
Registered:
Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #15 
Another way to imply chromaticism in Ragas:

If there is a meend between for example High Sa and Dha, all values in between are heard.

I would be especially interested in finding a Raga that employs an obligatory meend on these two notes.
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.