INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Dmitrii

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #1 
I'm interested in the rhythm of the thumri "Kate Na Birha Ki Raat" by Begum Akhtar:
http://mio.to/9%3Dfj
It is stated to be in Chanchar Taal (obviously, of 14 matraas).

I have found some information about this taal here:
http://chandrakantha.com/tala_taal/deepchandi/dipchandi.html

I'd be thankful if someone put more clear the following points:
1) Is chanchar simply another name for deepchandi, or it has some specific?
2) If it has some specific, then what is its base theka?
3) What are main prakaars used in this thumri?
0
Dmitrii

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #2 
Hmm... Why isn't there any reaction?... What is wrong with my question?...
Maybe the problem is that Chanchar is a rare taal name and there is not much information about it?

But what about the skeleton of the actual bols in this thumri?
For me, it sounds like the following:

|Dha - |Te Te |Te Te |
|Dha - |Dha - |Te - |Te Te |
|Ta - |Te Te |Te Te |
|Dha - |Dha - |Dha - |Ta Tin |

but maybe somebody would give a more correct version?
0
hbajpai

Registered:
Posts: 892
Reply with quote  #3 
Chachar is a folk name for Deepchandi which is 14 beats.
Dha dhin - | dha dha tin - | ta tin - | dha dha dhin - |

There are many people on this forum better than I when it comes to accompanying and they can give you variations.
0
Dmitrii

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks, hbajpai!
Yet I'd like to check the real bol's patterns in this thumri also. I'm just a newcomer to this field and it's not an easy task for me to recognize correctly the kind of bols by ear.
0
dinegine

Registered:
Posts: 79
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Dmitrii"
Thanks, hbajpai!
Yet I'd like to check the real bol's patterns in this thumri also. I'm just a newcomer to this field and it's not an easy task for me to recognize correctly the kind of bols by ear.
The tabla player is adding the bol 'tere kete' on matras 2,3 and 9,10

Dha tere kete| dha dha dhin -| ta tere kete| dha dha dhin -|

That is not the theka as I understand it, but these things are sometimes negotiated between singer and and tabla player
For example, the singer may have requested that tere kete, because either it helps her to navigate the taal, or for aesthetic reason, difficult to find out now!
But I have heard deepchandi played in a few slight varieties, the fact is artists do take liberties with taals and theka structures, that is always going to happen in a creative form.
I have never been asked to play Chanchar, so I can't comment if there is a distinction between it and deepchandi or why this separate name exists. But there are other examples of different names for the same taal.
Punjabi theka teentaal, Sitarkhani, Adi taal (as I hear alot of North Indian musicians increasingly use) seem to refer to the same 16 taal for tabla
0
Dmitrii

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #6 
Thank you, dinegine!

Tere kete, surely! How did I not understand it myself?!

Only one small note (when it comes to real bols typically used just in this rendition of this thumri). It seems to me that in fact Dhin is never used there on matra 6. It is always something nonresonant like Ka. Am I right? Maybe it'd be better then to write the typical real bol's pattern there as

Dha tere kete| dha dha ka -| ta tere kete| dha dha dhin -|

What do you think?
0
deep

Registered:
Posts: 90
Reply with quote  #7 
Although the beats are same, it is Deepchandi when played in slow tempo and thus more gracious..Chanchar is played in fast temp so applies more to folk songs..

You can use this for folk songs & create more variations..
Dhas Dhinagena Dhati Dhage TiNaKena
Tas TiNaKeNA DhaTi DhaGe DhiNaGeNa
0
Dmitrii

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #8 
Thank you, deep. The things are becoming more clear indeed.
0
Christianamr

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 464
Reply with quote  #9 
I have heard some clips in youtube that feature the Chachar taal which is similar to Deepachandi ( 14 beats - Mishra jati ) , so I am familiar with this one .

Unfortunately , there is some ambiguity reagarding this name , since swarganga.com features a Chachar taal in 16 beats . ( Chatushra jaati )

Also , the site shadjamadhyam mentions Chachar with 8 beats ( Chatushra jati ) .

http://www.shadjamadhyam.com/thumri_dadra_light_classical_bandish

Who knows why there are 2 ( or 3 ) different taals ( which belong to different jaatis ) bearing the same name Chachar , used in Hindustani sangeet ?

[ A similar example would be the hindustani Rupak taal ( 7 matras ) and the carnatic Rupaka talam ( 6 matras ) , but they pertain to different music systems ... Even more so for different Ektals or Ektalis according to Hindustani , Carnatic , Odissi or Bengali musical traditions ... ]

__________________
सहस्रनाम ततुलयम राम नाम वरानने |
Sahasranāma tat tulyam Rāma nāma Varānane .
0
Christianamr

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 464
Reply with quote  #10 
From the google forum , a topic mentioning rhythmic flexibility :
Quote:
Furthermore, I have independent confirmation of the notion that taal
identity
rests in the strokes, in the theka -- as opposed to the number of
smallest
common pulse units (chachar is chachar whether it's 14, 16 or some
irrational
number in between). Many years ago I was listening to Dinkar Kaikini's
"Bayati" with a VERY FAMOUS vocalist. Kaikini's performance is in
Pancham Rupak, which is a 10-beat version of rupak with pauses
inserted.
I had figured out that there were ten beats in the taal cycle, but it
wasn't Jhaptaal, so I was baffled. I asked the Great Master, "what
taal
is this?" He listened, then said, "it is rupak taal." I replied, "but
there
are ten matras in each avartan." He replied, "no, it is seven," and
proceeded to recite the theka: "Ti Ti - Na | Dhi - Na | Dhi - Na"
before
counting it out: "One Two -- Three | Four -- Five | Six -- Seven."

Nothing I could do would convince him that it was actually ten beats,
and
that he was eliding the silent strokes. As far as he was concerned, it
was
by God a song in rupak taal, regardless of inserted silences.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.indian.classical/chachar/rec.music.indian.classical/Do3Eyf8IAmM/yPS9AY_N92UJ

So there is mention about Chachar either having 14 or 16 matras ....

__________________
सहस्रनाम ततुलयम राम नाम वरानने |
Sahasranāma tat tulyam Rāma nāma Varānane .
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.