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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #1 
A recent exchange of opinions on Youtube over a clip I uploaded of Pt Shivnath Mishra & his son Deobrata prompted me to post this question.
It was the , I call, Surbahar Duel at this year's Dhrupad Mela in Varanasi, India.

A lot commented & said they really enjoyed it & fine but I made it clear I wasn't happy with the presentation of sitar clashing tarafs of Debu bhai on his surbahar as well as other disparaging??? comments about their version of what Dhrupad is about. And said so.

It's not that I dislike any other style of sitar/surbahar playing but felt this 'style' was inappropriate for a Dhrupad Mela.

I had quite a few replies from Debu which eventually went sour probably because he saw my point & practically TOLD me to take the clip off, threatening me with 'copyright' issues. I don't think Youtube would force me to remove it.
I replied, as it was a free outdoor concert, it would be near impossible to regulate recordings of all kinds such as video or sound equipment. If he felt it was not indivcative of his playing & he's unhappy about it (after it'd been on many weeks & received favourable comments) I would consider taking it off. Dhrupad can be viewed as very prestigious to perform at but I sometimes think egos get very much in the way & a few cheering people can be mistaken for the whole world liking something.

Was it more of a case of ego bruising than accepting another's opinion of one's playing????
I must say at NO point did I malign his father Pandit Shivnath in this way &, in fact, felt his father was incredibely restrained as I could see Debu moving across his father as he played.

I feel that if I, as a musician, am playing for an audience, especially if they've paid, I really don't mind a recording. It's up to others to decide differently, of course.
I'm not a commercial artist at all, unfortunately, so I don't have issues with recordings but appreciate that some may.

Of course, I got the 'we want to hear YOU play' when you come & visit our house.

When all is said & done, it's only MY opinion but he must feel I have a point or would never have chipped in in the first place. MAYBE?!?!!?!?

How do you all feel about this?? Here's the link to read the whole set of comments there between us both.



Feel free to call me on anything I said there if anyone feels I was wrong.

Nick
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adunc069

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Reply with quote  #2 
THis is what I wrote on Youtube................i think it's a cool clip, not taking sides with anybody, I like th clip, but I think you guys got a little off track of what is drhupad etc.... I think it's more like sitar ang than drhupad ang personally.............maybe that's what the caffulfle is about :?

Deobarat and Nick, what's all the cafuffle about? I really enjoyed the playing in this clip. Is it like Drhupad Dagarbani? well, no. it sounds much more exciting and lively, but definitely in style with drhupad. I would call it a very nice addition to the hundreds of videos Nick has added to youtube. Either, I really like the music you and your father played in this video!

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Aanaddha

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Reply with quote  #3 
Nick,
Look at it this way; recording someone without express permission can work both ways, but I think that any artist, if asked, would prefer to disassociate themselves with any cheaply made, poorly executed recording or video, no matter how good or unique their performance.
I know artists who won't have anything of themselves on youtube simply because of all the other crap that appears on the same page. It's really nothing more than a high-tech tabloid and I honestly can't blame them.

A.

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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Nick

Having read the correspondence I can understand you are a bit bit miffed about this, particularly when you were put down as influenced by a "tourist musician" and seeing the putdowns re bengali tola.

I may well agree with you also about the music at the end of the day, sounds like a travesty of dhrupad to me, but I can't play the clip to confirm this.

I don't think that artists lose their rights simply because there is no entry fee for a gig.

Why not just ditch the video, forget it and move on...
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thanks for the replies.

No, the artists don't lose their rights even if it's a free performance but it makes it far more easy to record & distribute, if one wants, rather than keep for one's or friends' later enjoyment.

I wanted to see what any knowledgeable or not so thought about it. All seemed to enjoy it though I suspect they know little of Dhrupad. :wink:

The thing is, NOBODY I've ever heard plays surbahar plays it like this & I've heard so many different styles from Ravi Shankar through to Vilayat & Imrat Khan.

True, anyone can play any instrument how they like but, with the same allowance, WE can say whatever we like as far as our opinion is concerned, however illinformed it may be.

I checked out their sitar playing on the other youtube clips & liked them & said so!!!
In one respect they should be grateful as I probably got them more fans!!!

When one plays for an audience, one is opened up to a myriad of opinions that may come & we should be ready for them regardless of positivity or negativity. Use them to better ourselves & don't let our egos get too bruised. :wink:

A
Agreed, although my recording wasn't cheaply or badly made but I know what you mean.

The artists KNOW people have cameras when they perform & NOONE but one pair last year have ever said 'please don't record' in english or in Hindi!!!
Why do you feel Youtube is crap??
It can be a great springboard for 'hidden' talent & LOTS OF CRAP, I must admit!!!

Nick
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Nagawoman

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Reply with quote  #6 
Hey Nick,
cool down, you put this vid up to bash some musicians, you did it and
not everybody joined the "This is no real Dhrupad" party, now the party is
over and everybody is unhappy. Back to practise.
A perfect example why ICM isn't always fun.
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ragamala

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by "trippy
True, anyone can play any instrument how they like but, with the same allowance, WE can say whatever we like as far as our opinion is concerned, however illinformed it may be.

Nick
Absolutely, few would disgree on that!

Sadly, there seem to be musicians who, inside and outside the forum, DO disagree and have a superior view, not to say condescending, patronising, arrogant, egocentric etc etc. We have to live with that as mere mortals.

What's important is what you say, not who you are.

Your view is as good as anyone elses - and better than many - and I trust your judgement - but I still say pull the plug on the video. If this is the level of the dhrupad mela I am not sure this encourages me to fit it into my timetable next year...
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #8 
nagawoman
Agreed but I have one last comment to put on as Debu seems to be under the ipression I'm an ignorant tourist with little or no knowledge of ICM. We'll sort that one out & I'll pull the vid.

R Thanks for the support.

Nick
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Keshavdas

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Reply with quote  #9 
It's one thing to watch and listen to a public performance - and quite another - to reproduce it without permission. If I may be so bold, I would venture to say, the person who videoed the performance - went because he thought he'd enjoy the work of someone he respected. And if said audience member respected and admired said performer, the question begs; what is the motivation for a continued broadcast of a performance by said artist, against his wishes? If I were said artist, I just might interpret such a refusal as a disrespectful and hostile act. The dissing and humiliating of people publicly, especially famous ones, (from the safety of one's home computer) is also one of the things You Tube is famous for. At one time or another - we have all made musical mistakes and or done performances we'd rather acknowledge and move on from - and the last thing any of wants is for someone to rub our faces in it.
K

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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #10 
K Bhai
We're not on about reproducing a performance here. That's getting a bit off-topic.
If he was bothered he should have asked me to remove it straight away. He didn't!!

Debu bhai is perfectly happy with his performance style & has said so.
I originally put it up to see how others see it as I don't regard myself as the 'be-all-&-end-all' of ICM here or anywhere. I made no comment about disliking it until someone made a comment warranting a retort. In fact most liked it & the Mishras gained fans.

It seems some people are so far up their own arses that they can't stand a little comment about their presentation. They wallow in some self made glory & then go hysterical when their arses aren't kissed. Especially when it explained perfectly well why!!! As I did re his taraf clashing playing to the 'galleries' as we call it.
And I wasn't the only one. I may have mentioned a certain very well known sitar/surbahar player sat near me last year that was appalled at it.

BTW I'm not one of those who 'hides' behind a computer or a nom-de-plume. I'm getting known in Varanasi (for whatever reasons) so I'm quite likely to meet the Mishras on my next trip. If only to explain face to face how I feel.

I AM entitled to feel as I do aren't I?????? Or does that depend on how famous my 'target' is???

Some asshole even questioned whether I was a musician at all. Dickhead!! Just because I don't fawn at the feet of people who think they're gods of music!! Bollox to that.

Nick
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Keshavdas

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Reply with quote  #11 
TM, Maharaj - to be sure - I didn't mean to infer that you were "hiding" behind a nom-de-plume. Truly - that's not where I was going. However, the following statement seems hard to misinterpret.

"I had quite a few replies from Debu which eventually went sour probably because he saw my point & practically TOLD me to take the clip off, threatening me with 'copyright' issues"

This statement gives the distinct impression that the You Tube broadcast was unwelcome I don't know what other conclusion to come to. I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread for some selfish agenda - but it did seem to beg comment. In the event, that many ICM guys don't take criticism well is a given. I've yet to meet a Pandit or an Ustad who encouraged opinions that veer far from his own.
Cheers,
Keshav

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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #12 
K
Agreed some DO hide behind names but I just made it clear I don't, not that YOU were accusing me so we're fine about that, 8)
I think I need to talk in Varanasi with Debu, as we all know :wink: , the written word, delayed as it can be, is not ideal.
My beef was not about alap or any part like that but his staccatto playing & taraf clashing which, to me & many others, was jarring on the ears!!

Nick
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #13 
It seems people think I hate the Mishras & will take all opportunities to slag them off. Not So!! As I checked out their other SITAR vids & was very ipressed & told them so. I think Debu realises his surbahar playing leaves a lot to be desired so I think point given AND taken so I'll pull the vid now.
The other dickhead has made another stupid comment as if he knows everything I represent/know & even mistaken my teacher as being the 'best sitarist in the world'. HIS guru, Ustad Shahid Parvezji IS & I corrected him!!!! :twisted:
Just because I 'play' sitar & surbahar doesn't mean I know F All about Dhrupad & that my knowledge is limited to a few performances. What a 'limited' prat!!!

8) 8) 8)
Nick
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