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nicneufeld

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Was listening to this album this afternoon:

http://oriental-traditional-music.blogspot.com/2012/10/imrat-hussain-khan-surbahar-sitar-lp.html

Side 1 starts with a surbahar alaap in Abhogi Kanada, then a sitar gat in Kalavati. I was struck with some amusement as I realized that the two raags are basically note for note equivalents (at least as regarding swara set and ascent/descent) but with shifted sa, and maybe UIK chose the two to pair together because of this. Anyway, anyone have any great insights on other differences between the two?

Kalavati definitely has my ears' allegiance, in that I never hear komal Ga in Abhogi Kanada, it has always sounded like a komal Ni to my ear.
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Kirya

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Reply with quote  #2 
They are closely related as you can see from this performance where they are both sung together simultaneously



Sanjeev Abhyankar and Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande perform a Jasarangi jugalbandi at Sawai 2013. In this most unusual and path breaking performance, she sings Abhogi while Sanjeev Abhyankar sings Kalavati

Abhogi is
S R g M D S'
       
S' D M g R S


Kalavati
S-G-P-D-n-D-S'
S'-n-D-P-G-P-G-S

I think if you are careful you can weave in and out as they do here and still keep both intact especially if you shift the Sa.

I think Surbahars are tuned to G# while most sitars are tuned to C# thus he may have noticed how close the two were.

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Kirya
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barend

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Reply with quote  #3 
I don't think there is any difference besides the shifted Sa. So Kalawati in D = Abhogi in G (Ma=Sa). One tends to hear the Ma in Abhogi as the Sa because of the Sa-Ma (reverted 5th) tuning of the tampura and chikaris. If there is any difference I would like to know as well. There is very little info on this.
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Jeff Whittier

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This thread is really a classic. I've said for years as a voice in the wilderness that the modern generation of ICM players is destroying the traditions of ICM by treating the rags simply as a scale. By the logic offered in this thread, Marwa and Mishra Shivaranjani are the same rag.
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David Russell Watson

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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Jeff
This thread is really a classic. I've said for years as a voice in the wilderness that the modern generation of ICM players is destroying the traditions of ICM by treating the rags simply as a scale. By the logic offered in this thread, Marwa and Mishra Shivaranjani are the same rag.
Well no, not really :
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barend

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Quote:
Originally Posted by "David
The third poster did say, but so far is the only one to say, that he thought there is no difference beside the shifted sa, but then also asked "If there is any difference" acknowledging uncertainty, including "There is little info on this".
Yes I said this not because I regard a raga as a scale but because I have been told so by Indian musicians. Also I have seen a video of a (well known) Indian musician mentioning the same thing (can't find that one anymore). If someone has good arguments why they are not the same I am hoping to hear them (especially from Jeff ). There is a lot of confusion about this.
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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #7 
Jeff, as David notes, the whole point of the thread was to discuss and elucidate the differences beyond just a shifted Sa, not to simply assert there were none. I have not been officially taught anything in the Kanada family but I assume Abhogi Kanada is going to have some particular emphasis and colour around the komal Ga. I heard a recording of Ust Abdul Karim Khan on Abhogi Kanada last night and more than other recordings I heard, the komal Ga shone out and the "Sa" felt more apparent to me (rather than confused with Ma, which I sometimes struggle with).

The raag-as-only-a-scale thing is a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone on here seriously asserts that. Now, sometimes I only "know" a raag as deep as its swara set and ascent/descent. Such as these...which is why I want to learn more about them, and asked! As for destroying the traditions of Indian classical music, well, I have a long way to go to achieve that goal, but I'll redouble my efforts and keep trying! :roll:
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Kirya

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Reply with quote  #8 
There are many ragas that have the same notes (scale) but have a very different chalan, mood and rasa e.g. Bhairavi and Bilaskhani Todi or Bhupali & Deshkar.

And yes I think most of us do understand that a raga is more than a scale and takes years of exploration. Many of the great masters sing and play the same ragas year after year because they continue to make new discovery. Any discussion on forums like this can only help raise the level of understanding of what a raga is and help us expose wrong assumptions. Especially if done respectfully rather than dismissively.

I think it is interesting that both Ashwini Bhide and Sanjay Abhyankar felt that there was enough kinship between these two raags to be able to sing them at the same time. Maybe just an experiment, but it does suggest that others have felt this kinship as Imrat Khan may have also noticed.

Abhogi is said to be borrowed from Carnatic music relatively recently and is also said to have similarities with Bageshree.

According to RP diff vs. Bageshree:
S g M, M g, RgM, M g (S)R, S
Observe the vakra arohi prayoga of R. A thoughtless or cavalier approach here can lead to an inadvertant run-in with Abhogi – recall the uccharana bheda that separates Bageshree and Abhogi in this region of the poorvanga – and run afoul of the Bageshree spirit.

Kalavati is also considered a "new" raga (20th century) and to my knowledge has much more utterang pradhan presence than Abhogi and also I think it has a lighter mood than Abhogi, from all the best renditions I have heard.

Prabha Atre has a very nice Kalavati

contrast this with Rashid Khan Abhogi

To me they are definitely similar but different.

Perhaps a better way to compare more deeply is to hear the same master sing them both. Here is Amir Khan doing both:

Kalavati:
and
this is his Abhogi


This is UVK Kalavati http://www.mediafire.com/listen/bmo5mra7tezt2tz/VK_Kalavati_gat.mp3


But I am still intrigued that the vocalists above felt they were close enough to be sung together which suggests that they think the moods are also very close.

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Kirya
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Reply with quote  #9 
A raag is a feeling or a mood, expressed within a musical framework that is almost like a language onto itself. Only those who have spoken and learned this language can really understand the meanings inherent in certain subtleties - and I am speaking of emotional meanings or shadings. This is why, as Kriya mentions above, some maestros continue to play, study, and expand on a few particular ragas over their entire musical career. We of the west are at a disadvantage since our exposure to the language of ICM, and to the particular dialect of individual raags usually started later in life than our Indian counterparts. It is, in the final analysis, all about feelings - emotional states of being really, which covers a much greater range of meaning than "feelings" does. In addition to gaining a deeper understanding of the language of a particular raag over time, a musicians internal state at the time of the performance can influence outcomes as well. For geat players, playing a great raag, it must be like coming back to visit an old and dear friend after having so many more life experiences. Or experiencing once again, through a different lens of time and internal truth, the meaning of grief, anguish, triumph, glory, sacrifice, playfulness, joy, and finally, oneness with the music, which is about as close as most of us will ever get, to oneness with God.
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Kirya

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Reply with quote  #10 
Yay that Mr. Fosse!

What is a raga?

I have pondered this question for most of my life and I don't have a quick and ready answer. I even posed this question to both Nikhil Banerjee and Kishori Amonkar at different times. They both said that a raga is a divine presence that materializes in sonic form, a Devata, but struggled to talk about it in words and paused long and hard before responding.

This description at the link below is about the best that I have been able to come up with after all this time : https://sway.com/OpVbAcXD5ZIO5Dnr

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Kirya
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Kirya

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Jasrangi Jugalbandi by Ashwini Bhide Deshpande and Sanjeev Abhyankar, at The Hindu Friday Review November Fest, was a smooth blend of voice and raag

She nurtured Raag Nat Bhairav while he cultivated Raag Madhuvanti. But, together their worlds blended so beautifully that it did not matter that they were both simultaneously singing two different raags in two different scales. On the second day of The Hindu Friday Review November Fest, Ashwini Bhide Deshpande and Pandit Sanjeev Abhyankar presented the Jasrangi Jugalbandi, brainchild of Pandit Jasraj, that was created to enable a male and a female vocalist to sing together in perfect harmony.

“There is a difference of half an octave between a male and a female singer’s voice. In order to preserve their tonal quality, this jugalbandi was created. It is based on the Moorchana principle of classical music,” explained Abhyankar at the start of the evening. Interestingly, right after this explanation, he said, “I request you to forget about the two raags and simply enjoy the performance.” And, indeed, the beauty was in the unity of the two raags.

Individually, both artistes are custodians of such rich traditions that one could blindly trust them to carry the audience through such a difficult arrangement. The difficulty was in the fact that both of them had to listen to each other but not too much to get deep into each other’s raags and forget their own.

Deshpande carefully developed the melody of Nat Bhairav sprinkling immensely charming microtonal nuances along the way. And Abhyankar ably picked up the layered notes of Madhuvanti from where she left off. The give and take between the two was so smooth that the audience was compelled to put their hands together each time the duo completed each other’s lines.

What stood out was the manner in which both artistes rendered the aakar at breakneck speed without letting even one note go astray. Each aakar prayog competed with the previous one to be complex, yet with fantastic clarity.

It was not just a vocal jugalbandi but a jugalbandi of the instrumentalists too. So Milind Kulkarni and Tanmay Deochake’s harmonium play was fascinating followed by a rhythmic jugalbandi between Ajinkya Joshi and Rohit Mujumdar (tabla).

The second combination of raags for the evening was Abhogi and Kalavati. Deshpande developed Abhogi and Abhyankar picked up Kalavati from her fourth note — ‘ma’. Again, the opening alaap, while highlighting each raga’s individuality simultaneously focused on the connection Abhogi shared with Kalavati or vice-versa. Both artistes delved deep into the low notes and scaled the highest notes with utmost ease. The fast-paced ‘Ras barasat tore ghar’ in the same raag combination, composed by Deshpande was impressive.

They ended the evening with a Mira bhajan, ‘Main toh saware ki rang rachi’ composed by Abhyankar. Packed with bhakti and love, this bhajan was heartwarming.




From the Wikipedia:

Graha bhedam

Ābhōgi's notes when shifted using Graha bhedam, yields another pentatonic rāgam Valaji. Graha bhedam is the step taken in keeping the relative note frequencies same, while shifting the shadjam to the next note in the rāgam. For more details and illustration of this concept refer Graha bhedam on Ābhōgi.

P.Moutal understands raag Kalavati as transposition of Abhogi.[4]

From a French site: http://monindependancefinanciere.com/lenciclopedie/seccion-a/abhogi.php

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Kirya
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Kirya

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Reply with quote  #12 
Another way that I have always found useful to learn the basic blueprint of a raga is to listen to some of the older Hindi movie songs (pre-Bollywood) when they were still called Hindi movies.

One does have to be careful as the music producers did not feel any real commitment to keeping the integrity of a raga intact.

But some of these songs are excellent ways to learn the basic melodic contours and chalan of a raga e.g.

Yaman
this is a quintessential Yaman song with all the major swar sangitis developed. Actually there may be hundreds of songs in Yaman but for me this one rises above the rest.

Gaudsarang Slow -

Fast
I know I surprised my teacher in India who thought I had suddenly learned this raga on my own but I was just playing the na dir teem part of the song like a gat.

Shivranjani -


So anyway here are some regarded to be in the ragas in question. I don't know them so I cannot vouch for them but some may find them useful.

Raga: Abhogi Kanada
Jiya lage kya karu sajna
Na jaiyo re sautan ghar sainya


Raga: Kalavati
Hay re vo din kyun na aye - Anuradha - music by PRS
Kahe tarasae jiyara - Chitralekha
A ja re mere pyarke sahi
Koi sagar dilko bahalata nahin - Dil Diya Dard Liya
Kabhi to miloge jivansathi
O ghath savari thodi thodi bavari
Sanam tu bevafake namse - Khilona
Subah aur sham kamhi kam - Uljhan
Dil men aur to kya rakha hai - A Ghazal by Ghulam Ali
Maika piya bulave - Sur Sangam
Hai agar dushman zamana - Hum Kisise Kum Nahin
Bhajan bina chain naa aye ram - Rafoochakkar
Meri Awaaz suno - Naunihal

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Kirya
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nicneufeld

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Reply with quote  #13 
There's a nice drut gat on UIK's recording mentioned in the original post. I've heard him play this with his sons on an old Youtube recording I think (50 Fingers of Imrat Khan) and I'm not sure if this wasn't also used in the movie he worked on, with Michael Caine (Wilby Conspiracy).

Anyway, I slowed it down (bit too fast for my ears to parse) and it seems like this is it, in case anyone wants a fun gat to play at breakneck speed.

| P- x- x- PD | G- P- Dn nD | PD -n -S -n | DP /P\G SG /P\G |

(x is chikari, - is a half beat "rest", and the meends are difficult to represent but hearing the original makes it clear)
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