INDIAN MUSIC FORUMS

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adunc069

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Reply with quote  #16 
Hi, I agree with the right-hand having to be correct for compositinos. However, I think it's good to have it right for the gat, but not essential for tans. Since if the gat sounds wrong, than it just sounds no good.

As to finding devices to succinctly communicate ICM through the internet. My honest opinion(some of you might be offended by this) but staff notation is the only system that has existed for many centuries which replicates the music with exact precision. Look at Alain Danielou's transcriptions. If you read them, they sound just like the recording he transcribed. Exact replications for right hands and stroke patterns already exist with staff notation. For violin pieces, the bowing direction is indicated, a way of writing picking/mezrab patterns already exist.

I think instead of putting all of this effort into making up a new system where complex music is being complexly explained, it would be in people's best interest to simply learn to read music. It's not very hard, and seeing as most of the time, the fastest anybody ever plays is 32nd notes (4 per beat), you only need to learn a few notations. Complex things like murki's and extensive meend work is easily notated in staff notation. I think the efforts would be far more rewarding to simply learn a perfectly useful system that has already existed for centuries. Many other classical/non-western music is writen in staff notation for the same purposes of communicating the music to other people. African, Spanish, CHinese, etc.. all use staff notation. Free writing software exists for people to do this. Really, it's quite simple to learn.

Either way the cookie crumbles, I've been banging my head against a wall with this, thinking up many ways to do this. I can post them if you'd like. Many studious musicians from many other cultures, such as the Guanling Qin notation of China, can be translated into staff notation. It just seems much more simple to just learn to read a few notes and a few rhythms. It won't detract from the music. And since a key is not exactly in effect, you simply write that Sa=C, but the pitch can be varied. I can't really think of a good argument as to why not to do this. But I think for this particular forum, it's good to have a few people's versions of how to write ICM and maybe one day there actually will be an independant ICM notation system recognized world over. I'm being sincere and not trying to offend anybody, so if any offence was taken, than I apologize in advance.

Adam

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sitarman

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Reply with quote  #17 
Adam,
I am a western classical music composer, besides being a sitarist. Your post was really intriguing! You are 100% correct in pointing out that, so far, there does not exist a notation system as accurate in rhythmic and melodic clarity, as western music notation. I often wondered, when first studying sitar, why it wasn't used. I will admit that the sargam notation, and grouping of notes into two or four note patterns, can be very easily learned wit the type of system that AAK or RS has used, but even this is a recent development. I have been told by teachers that, in days gone by, music was rarely written down, and is only encourtaged for initial learning purposes. Dr. Hassan would bre more knowledgeable in this So, if that is true, of course the notation systems never developed in ICM. Now we are trying to fix that, and both he and Adam have excellent points. As for his work in deciphering the patterns with computer based tools, it is also commendable. Adam has pointed out that the gats will sound quite different if played with different strokes. This too cannot be denied. I had replied earlier in these posts, saying that one could be liberal with the stroke patterns and that the normal word processors we are using for communication here would be difficult to read if we tried to include every nuance of the performance. This is an important factor, and I think the use of western musical notation might have the same problem. For quick communication on this forum, for instance, how would we post staff examples? I guess, given that I assume many here are not proficient in reading western music, and that there is of yet, no ICM system that conveys everything, the learning curve is going to be there no matter what we choose! However, the ease of posting here, or elsewhere, with staff, is a big obstacle.
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hassan azad

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Reply with quote  #18 
Transcriptions
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RichardH

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Reply with quote  #19 
This took about 45 min.- omitting notation of bols & vamping:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5214/skalyanvilayat1sv.gif
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hassan azad

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Reply with quote  #20 
I couldn't access the link. It is blocked here.

I searched on google for "transcription program, that produces print music from audio" and got this:

Note Chaser: Musical Transcription Assistant

Could someone try this and compare how the score sounds?
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adunc069

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #21 
Richard H version is good too. I got through the link. It opens up and then you can save the file as a picture. Very Succint and to the point. Is this your own way of writing you came up with? Or just the way yyou've been doing it since you started? I like the underline-parentheses indicating the beat. As well as the line seperating the parts of tintal. I definetly think we both like the idea of having the same amount of beats in the tal per line. Anwyas, I liked it.

Hi Dr. Azad, it's a good thing you said that idea about passing it off to someone who knows nothing about ICM. I did this sort of experiment last year with a couple friends. I wrote out the parts, gave it to a violin player, and I actually recorded the Rageshree in 11 beats (the same one in the Rags & Compositions section on this forum) with an alto saxophone player, myself on sitar and a tabla player, and though the sax player knew nothing about ICM, he gradually got a an understanding about tihai's and tans, coming back to the gat etc.. and it was a lot of fun. Now, if you ask me did he sound like a pro that's been doing it for years, of course not. But he played the music very well, and said he wants to do more things like that in the future, also the alto sax is a very nice sound. I think a warmer sounding shenai to be exact. Another time I wrote out something for Jhinjhoti, same thing happened with her. She read the notes, played the piece, including murki's and other ornaments, and it sound as I wanted it to. I understand exactly what you're saying, but if it is possible to gain the inflection of ICM only through experience and if one can get it through staff, than why not do that too :-) Oh yes, the Behag is also done too.

I was not criticising what you did, so please don't take offence. I was simply stating that if musical ideas want to be related to the rest of the scholarly musical world, then in my humble opinion, staff notation is a must have. Not to say learning to read ICM is all that less challenging as it takes some time for note recognition, just like learning staff notation.
What if Paluskar and Bathkande wrote out all their work, but had someone to translate it into staff notation, their work would be widely known across the world and not just to India. So, we obviously have more than one way of notation on this forum which is great.

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hassan azad

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Reply with quote  #22 
Hi Adam, there is no question of any offense etc. If staff notation can capture the ICM better than the usual one, then that would be the way to go. You'll be glad to know that in the newly established Academy of Performing Arts, Karachi, familiarity with staff notation is a must for people to graduate from there.

What about the Note Chaser: Musical Transcription Assistant ( type this on google to get the link) ? Does anyone have experience with this?
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adunc069

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #23 
I downloaded it. However, when I tried to use it my computer said there was a problem with it and it won't work. Something about a bad patch. Looks like a great program. A time saving device for sure

Adam

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sitarman

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Reply with quote  #24 
Hassan, where did you download the MediaPlayer that allows you to slow down files?
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adunc069

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Reply with quote  #25 
Okay, you can do it in Windows Mdia player. YOu go uner the play column at the top of the screen select, slow, normal or fast. You can also do it like this when the file is playing.

ctrl+shift+s for slow
ctrl+shift+n for normal
ctrl+shift+f for fast

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Sadaqat chup nahi sakti banawat ke usolon
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sitarman

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Posts: 599
Reply with quote  #26 
Thanks for the Windows Media Plaer info! I never knew that feature existed. Richard, your notation is very clear and conveys everything one needs to know.
If I did not know how to read western music, I would be hard pressed to decide which system is easier for a beginner to learn- your system or western notation. Since I already knew western notation before learning the current Indian notation (which obviously is not standardized) I think it was easy to lean towards that. Playing Devil's advocate here, can someone tell me where western notation is superior to a clearly indicatyed system like Richard's_ aside from the fact that it takes a lot more room to write a very busy phrase?
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denis

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Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #27 
Hi all,
I really want to listen to the recording. I cant get into Patrick's home page becuase I dont have a mac. Is there any other way to find this recording. Otherwise I will just try to get access to a mac.
Thanks Denis.
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daz199

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Posts: 431
Reply with quote  #28 
you dont need a mac to get to the page..
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