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hassan azad

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default
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daz199

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Reply with quote  #2 
awesome, thanks for posting

can somebody fix the formatting so its easier to read? all the colors have been lost too... theyre at http://www.virsaonline.com/Articles/Articles%2007.htm
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adunc069

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi, Dr Azad had sent this to me to see what i would do. Here's what I would do, I also took the liberty of fixing some mistakes on some of the laonger tans. I also wrote it in staff notation. You can go to http://www.finaleshowcase.com , click on the FInale Showcase link at the bottom left side of the screen, download the Finale Notepad, this appears on the first page, then search and write Adam Duncan, and you will get a notated version that can be played on your computer too. Each line is supposed to be seperated with spaces like this _ _ _ _ then another group _ _ _ _ < but the site won't let me do it that way.

Shyam Kalyan

Gat in tintal (16 beats)

Notation explanation

_ = 1 full beat rest
/ = ½ a beat rest
Underined letters are low octave (SRGmPDN)
Capital letters are middle octave (SRGmPDN)
Black letters are upper octave (SRGmP)

If there are spaces between notes like this:

GMDNSNDN DMGMRSNS

this means there are no rests between these groups of notes. I wrote it like that so it’s a little easier to read.

If you read, G M M R _ S R , let each note be worth a full beat each

If you see G_M then it just means one full beat of space between the notes and that each note is worth a full beat.

I’ve also tried to keep tans in groups of four beats as well, if the tan is longer than 4 beats, you’ll see this, RMPDMPGm NSRNSRNS R

If two notes are beside each other like this, MMRSnS, this means that you play 2 notes in one beat.

The difference between notating a regular Ma is like this m, tivra Ma will be M

A one beat murki will be notated like this (PMD)P, with the last note landing one the next beat. Essentially, a triplet and then the last note a ½ note which lands on the following beat, (123) 1

If play the a note and the Ni tarab string at the same time, the note played will be notated as this, Ssssssss Ssssssss, having the repeated note smaller than the irst one played with the chikari makes it nore obvious to the reader as to where you should play the tarab

Each line is sixteen beats long

Shyam Kalyan (Ustad Vilayat Khan)

S/ S/ _
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ G _ _ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ G _ _ _ m m R _ S
R_ _ _ S R S _ D P _ N S RSNSRM
PDPMDPMP GmRSNS G _ _ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ /RSNDP MPGmRSNS G _ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ NS
RMPDNSRM PDPMPMGm RSNSG/ _ m m R S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ G _ _ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ MP NSRDPMPM GmRSNS G m R _ S
R_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
R _ M M P_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ PMDPND PMDPMPMG mR/RPMDP MNDPMPNS
RSDSDPMD PMPMGmRS NSG/ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ M M P _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ DPRSNS RMPDPMND PMDPMPGm RSNRS/ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ SN DPMPNSRS NMRSNSRM PGmRmRSN
SRMPDPMN DPMPNSRS NSRRRMMM PPPGGGmm
mRSNRSNS DSDPMPS/ _ mmRSmm RSmmRSNS
R _ _ _ _ _ _ G _ _ _m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ S R S _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ P N S _ S R S _ S N S ¬_
_ _ R M P _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ MMPMMP MMPMPMPM PMMPMMDP DPDPDPMD
PMPMGmR/ /MPDPMSD PMDDP/ _ _ _ _ _
_ RMRMPD PMSDPMPN SRM/ /PMN DPMDPMPM
GmR//MPD PMSDPMPN SRNSRMPD GmRSNRSN
SNDSDPMD PMPMGmRS NSG/ _ m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ R _ RR M P N _
S _ _ _ S R S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ RSNSRM PNSRSNSN DPMPGmRS
NSRMPNSR NRS/ _ _ _ R _ RR M P N N
S _ _ _ S R S _ _ _ _N D N S _
N/ /D P _ (PMD) P _ G _ m R R M P NNDP
MDPMPMGm RSNSG/_ _ _ _ m m R _ S
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ S S _
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
S _ RSSS Ssssssss Ssssssss Ssssssss
SsssssSs ssssSsss SsssssSs ssSsss
SSGmRSNS GmRSNRSN SNDPMPNS RSNmRSNS
RMPGmRmR SNSRMPMR MPDPMNDP MDPMPMGm
mRRRMMMP PPNDPMPN SRNSR/_ M P G m
RSNRSNSN DSDPMPS/ S/DPMPG/ m/RSNSR/
R _ _ _ _ _ _ G _ _ _m m R _ S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ G m m R S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RS
NSRMPNSR NSRMPDMP GmRSNRSN SNDSDPMP
NNDPMPGm RSNSG/ _ _ _ _m m R _ S
R _ _ G m R _ S R _ _ G m R _S
R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ S _ S _ _ _
R
Well, I did a version here if anybody likes, give opinion etc....

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Sadaqat chup nahi sakti banawat ke usolon
se, Ki khushbu a nahi sakti kabhi kaghez ke phoolon se
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daz199

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Reply with quote  #4 
adam you're tha man
thanks 8) 8)
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trippy monkey

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Reply with quote  #5 

MA Komal????? :?
Nick
Nice bit of work though 8)
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adunc069

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #6 
Both versions posted have normal Ma = m
tivra ma = M

Why does'nt someone else take this and see if they have a different way of writing it, it would be good to have more people thinking about this too.

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Sadaqat chup nahi sakti banawat ke usolon
se, Ki khushbu a nahi sakti kabhi kaghez ke phoolon se
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sitarman

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Posts: 599
Reply with quote  #7 
Hello All,
Hassan had sent me the transcription privately as well. I am humbled by the amount of work he and adunc have put in. Much appreciated. The phrasing clarity in Adunc's version was greatly needed. I realize that, listening to the recording as you read, it becomes obvious, but I have always felt that written music, of any genre, should be able to stand on its own and convey both melodic and rhythmic accuracy. Especially when playing taans, the rhythmic phrasing is essential. The Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khan method of notation, with curved slurs connecting notes in each beat, etc. is very accurate but impossible to duplicate with word processors for a forum like this or through email, so you have done the next best thing and it works. Good job, guys.
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daz199

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Posts: 431
Reply with quote  #8 
I like the way sitar@mac.com (whats his new user name?) used to notate..
for example in tintal

I S-S-S-SR l n -SS-g-m-P l PnD,snDn-DP- mP-mg l mgg-RS-xn-xPn l

easy to see the beats and the divisions of the cycle
post more of these josh! 8)
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The Rover

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Posts: 78
Reply with quote  #9 
A valiant effort, Dr Azad. You must have put a great amount of time into this, and it is indeed admirable. However, there is one crucial element ommited: the right hand stroke patterns. Without the stroke patterns, which have considerable variations from phrase to phrase, the the composition will not live. That was one of the subtle elements that defined Ustad Vilayat Khansahib's playing. Would anyone venture as to what they may be?
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sitarman

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Posts: 599
Reply with quote  #10 
I think the ideal internet notation would be a combination of the two
systems. I find that having a bold letter for sam is preferable to having an
x or any additional notation. Likewise I feel that it is not necessary to
indicate, with an apostrophe, every stroke. I believe that the least amount
of symbols that will give an accurate melodic and rhythmic representation of the music is not only easier to read, but much quicker to write. As for
color coding, I like that idea too since it eliminates the need for lines over and under notes to indicate octaves. The underline would be better utilized, in my opinion, for slurs (either
gamak or meend) and so the ' that you used for each stroke would be
unnecessary. I personally find that grouping notes into one beat, not four
beat groups, makes reading taans much easier, and the _ for a beat rest, and - for partial rest (half beat or third of a beat, etc. depending upon
how many notes are grouped into that beat) is very clear and easily written.
For instance a triplet with the second note left out, followed by a matra
with a silent first half beat would be S-S -S. I think many of us are used
to - already and it seems more readable as a "gap" in the melody. The use of / / bracketing each beat is unnecessary if we add the space between beats and again that eliminates a lot of clutter.
I think this a wonderful project and a universally accepted method of
communicating gats and taans, staring with this forum, would be a big step in sharing information.
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The Rover

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Posts: 78
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Likewise I feel that it is not necessary to
indicate, with an apostrophe, every stroke.
Well, if you are attempting to replicate what was played, you need to pay attention to the strokes. Each one. The the attuned listener, the Da Ra and Diri's do not just define how the note sounded, but the sycopation and overall rythmic flow, as it affects how the joras are played. If you played the entire composition with alternating Da Ra's, it would sound rather dull. It is what separates the players from the strummers.

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theRover
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adunc069

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #12 
Hi, I think that, at least in my preference, there's no need to be told which right hand pattern to use to play it. If you can read the music, then the person can obviously play and understands it to some degree. With that being said, right hand patterns can than be figured out by how a person would like that phrase to sound.

For instance, when I was at a shibber with Ustadji, other sitarists were playing different patterns because they heard it differently. This is the same thing for sheet music, no fingerings are provided unless it's explicit for that passage of music etc.. I think it would add to the trouble of learning the piece and simply adding another obstacle for the learning process. What a musician playing a Bach piece will usually do is, read through it many times and make decisions about the right hand patterns, fingerings, phrasing, etc.. Why should'nt it be the same thing for printed ICM? Same thing for meends etc.. You'd have to decide for yourself, and do the decision work on our own. For instance, what if you're told in the preface of the piece that "When playing a tan, only hit one string, not the Sa string too, only the ma string, then you sound like Ravi" But what if you don't like that sound, would you continue to play it that way? Probably not. so that's my two cents about notating meends and right hand fingerings :-)

__________________
Sadaqat chup nahi sakti banawat ke usolon
se, Ki khushbu a nahi sakti kabhi kaghez ke phoolon se
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sitarman

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Posts: 599
Reply with quote  #13 
Adunc,
I think we are on the same page and you make a couple of great points. To indicate the mizrab patterns is certainly nice but it clutters so much that it makes the transcriptions sluggish and twice as much work to write. Perhaps, in a very distinct phrase, for instance a series of da strokes for effect, an asterisk with a note at the bottom of the page would serve the same purpose and be much easier to indicate. As for the post which indicated that the da ra patterns have a bearing on syncopation, syncopation means space- leaving out a beat or part of a beat. It is not literally affected by the type of stroke. Syncopation and accent are two different terms. When studying with Shujaat, he would occassionally play a phrase with a slightly different da ra pattern, for variation, and the only time he advised me to play it exactly was with diri patterns, or being aware, after a taan, to have sam fall on a da stroike for accent. I agree that some freedom in this is a good thing. Also, and very importantly, we are dealing with the word processors for online communication, not printing presses, and simplification, without sacrificing the essence of communicating the music, is necessary.
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hassan azad

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Posts: 56
Reply with quote  #14 
transcriptions
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The Rover

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Posts: 78
Reply with quote  #15 
Hello All,

Dr. Azad: Again, my commendations to you for your imaginative technical wizardry. I admire and appreciate your central mission for undertaking such rigorous methods. My admiration extends to all who choose to study Hindustani and Karnatic music. The transcriptions called for close listening and a good ear, both of which are apparent. Indeed you mention that it is not your goal to replicate, but to provide a foundation for advanced students to build upon. Additionally, I concede it may be technically impossible to interpret bol patterns without a knowledgeable (and willing) teacher. But I believe that as sitarists, (and not as hacks) we should at the very least acknowledge (what many of you may well know) that the right-hand work is an integral component of our riyaz and performance. This should not be taken lightly, and in certain circumstances, can not be subjected to “artistic license” as others have suggested. Contrary to other opinions, I believe there is a correct and incorrect way to render the signature compositions that great masters have created, and that when possible, these compositions should be rendered correctly. The bol pattern is as important in this endeavour as the note being played. Frankly, why bother with all the hard work if you are going to muck up the composition anyway? Would you wear Reeboks with an Armani suit?

Indian classical music has escaped establishing an accepted notational system due to written notes’ incomplete and sometimes misleading nature. If not played with proper right hand strokes, the gat/bandish sounds incorrect and butchered. Of course, as was stated by Dr. Azad, one can instill such patterns themselves when dealing with taans. But for compositions, stroke patterns are FIXED. With regard to my previous statement on syncopation, forgive me if I was ignorant in my usage. What I meant was that the the taans will sound ‘off’ if the intended right-hand patterns are not executed. For example, if the taan is broken up into phrases of 5, such as (P M G R S, M G R S N), playing a stroke pattern of 5 (D R D D R, for example), versus straight ( D R D R….) produces an entirely different statement! (Just listen to taans by Pt Ravi Shankarji and Ud Vilayat Khansahib in quick succession and the impact of stroke patterns become as obvious as an elephant in a tutu) What I am proposing (and what Dr Azad had written) is that the limitations of transcription should be brought to light and mentioned when dealing with jewels of music such as this. Perhaps they can yet be overcome!

Furthermore, the reference to Western classical music, and Bach in particular, strikes me. I would use the same example to prove an opposite point. As we know, Indian classical music is very different than Western classical music. Precisely because Western classical music notation relies on the principles of ‘choice’ as mentioned by another post, this should serve as a clue as to why Indian classical music is difficult to write down. When dealing with an artist’s composition, we do not have the liberty to choose the stroke patterns – it can be argued that Ustad Vilayat Khan’s ‘choice’ for stroke patterns for his own compositions was the best choice. (Yes, I know that the compositions may originate from vocal bandishes, but that is another dance) And if his compositions are going to be played and attributed to him, then they should be played according to how he played them. I do understand that without a very knowledgeable guru, this is virtually impossible. And as stated by Dr Azad, therein lies the hurdle. At this level, there is only so far one can go without proper guidance. And proper guidance is tough to come by.

Keep it up Friends,

ROVER.

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theRover
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