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20 equal beats in tintal PERCUSSIVE INSTRUMENTS
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140 posts taal 140 posts
taal
As said before, I have created separate post to elaborate this topic further. Those intersted may please consider and opine.
Regards;
Taal
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biru_ramen 16 posts
biru_ramen
I was listening to David Courtney's tabla solo (on this website). At one point he counts 20 equal beats in the 16 beat tintal. How is this written using the Indian style notation? Would there be a "tie" connecting one matra to another? Could I see a composition that uses this type of phrasing?
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rapture 471 posts
rapture
i haven't heard the clip, but it sounds like he was playing two cycles of jhaptaal in tintal. 10 beats in bhari and 10 more in khali. you can play any jhaptal composition in this way. writing it would be difficult, why don't you try to recite jhaptal theka while keeping the beat in tintal and see if you can get the hang of that first. once you can do that, then i'm sure you can figure out a way to write it down

you could even do an entire jhaptal solo in tintal........has anyone ever heard of this being done? i haven't.......
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jaan e kharabat 1,401 posts
jaan e kharabat
If you like to hear the 'be all and end all' in this type of layakaari, check out the following article:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05282001/musicarts.asp

all you have to do when listening to his clips is to keep or count the beats of the base tal and you will realise what mind boggling things he is doing.
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?
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biru_ramen 16 posts
biru_ramen
ty rapture. Reciting two cycles of a jhaptal theka over tintal sounds like a great exercise (or even one cycle for that matter). That opens up a whole new bag for me. And thanks jaan, I wasn't able to access that particular article but I will keep trying.
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taal 140 posts
taal
Any layakari (any taal into any taal) can be done using simple Arithmetic.
Want to write 10 beats in 8 bits? Take LCM of 10 and 8; which is 40. Hence extend given 10 beats into 40 beats by adding three pauses at end of each beat. Then divide total 40 beats obtained so far into 8 equal groups, each having 5 beats. Duplicate this and then you are playing 20 beats in tintaal. Also said in other way, you are playing dugun of jhaptaal in “barabar” of teentaal.

First half is shown written below. Just duplicate for completion of teentaal.

DHISSSNA SSSDHIS SSDHISS SNASSS

TISSSNA SSSDHIS SSDHISS SNASSS

There is specific way to add pauses, and specific way to recite them. If someone is interested, I will add further.

Using same logic, you can play teentaal in jhaptaal. Good practise (basically recital) of such layakari acrobatics will give one confidence to play them well.


In my opinion, such things are rarely done in real life of solo and accompaniment. Listener may not appreciate or recognise it, thus making all the efforts worthless. They serve as good exercise to strengthen layakari basics.
Regards;
Taal
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biru_ramen 16 posts
biru_ramen
Great stuff taal. And yes, I am very interested in learning how the recitation goes, and the specific way of adding the pauses.
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rapture 471 posts
rapture
now we all know why you chose the name TAAL!

i would also be interested in your further description of laykari.
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nupadhay 39 posts
nupadhay
Taal,

Great!
It would be even more educational if there is way to add .wav file the way you recite them that way we can have both the written bols and correct way of reciting them coming straight from taal.

Is there a way we can attach sound file in this forum???
It will strongly boost the learning/sharing process on this forum.

Thanks
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nupadhay 39 posts
nupadhay
taal wrote:
Any layakari (any taal into any taal) can be done using simple Arithmetic.
Want to write 10 beats in 8 bits? Take LCM of 10 and 8; which is 40. Hence extend given 10 beats into 40 beats by adding three pauses at end of each beat. Then divide total 40 beats obtained so far into 8 equal groups, each having 5 beats. Duplicate this and then you are playing 20 beats in tintaal. Also said in other way, you are playing dugun of jhaptaal in “barabar” of teentaal.

First half is shown written below. Just duplicate for completion of teentaal.

DHISSSNA SSSDHIS SSDHISS SNASSS

TISSSNA SSSDHIS SSDHISS SNASSS

There is specific way to add pauses, and specific way to recite them. If someone is interested, I will add further.

Using same logic, you can play teentaal in jhaptaal. Good practise (basically recital) of such layakari acrobatics will give one confidence to play them well.


In my opinion, such things are rarely done in real life of solo and accompaniment. Listener may not appreciate or recognise it, thus making all the efforts worthless. They serve as good exercise to strengthen layakari basics.


Taal,

One confusion. Say if there are 2 tabla players one is maintaining the basic 16 beat teen taal theka say (Dha Dhin Dhin Dha) * 4
The other is playing 40 beats which is 8 * 5 = 40 so when he completes 40
beats the first guy has played 16(full cycle) + 16(full cycle) + 8(half cycle)
which means the 1st guy is half way through in the 3rd cycle while the 2nd guy has completed his 40 beat since we trying to fit into teen taal shouldn't we taking the LCM between 10 and 16 that would be 80???

Thanks
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taal 140 posts
taal
Please give me couple of days time, so that I can add bit further on this basics of layakari. I am very much tied with routine at moment.

Nupadhye, coming to your question, I don't get exactly why you have this confusion. In the case of dugun of jhaptaal being played, yes, we are playing 80 beats in 16 beats (the composition written in previous post had 40 beats, which was just half of teentaal cycle). Hence basically it is LCM of 20 (because we are considering dugun of jhaptaal) and 16; which is 80.

One can also play single of jhaptal in teentaal, which is playing 10 beats in 16 beats. Again, LCM being 80, we have extend each beat of jhaptaal into 8 beats, by adding 7 pauses, and then group them in 5 beats per gropus, to get 16 grous of teentaal.

Whether you play 40 beats or 80 beats in 16 beats, both take same time!
Hence imagine two tabla players, one playing single of teentaal, say takes 6 seconds to finish his cycle; then second player playing has to take exactly 6 seonds to finish his 40 (or 80 beats).
Regards;
Taal
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nupadhay 39 posts
nupadhay
taal wrote:
One can also play single of jhaptal in teentaal, which is playing 10 beats in 16 beats. Again, LCM being 80, we have extend each beat of jhaptaal into 8 beats, by adding 7 pauses, and then group them in 5 beats per gropus, to get 16 grous of teentaal.


Taal,

Lets say we are playing 10 beats in 16 beats and the LCM being 80 we added 7 pauses as below for 10 beat Jhap Taal

1) DhinSSSSSSS 2) NaSSSSSSS
X
3) DhinSSSSSSS 4) DhinSSSSSSS 5) NaSSSSSSS
X
6) TinSSSSSSS 7) NaSSSSSSS
O
8) DhinSSSSSSS 9) DhinSSSSSSS 10) NaSSSSSSS
X

I understand pasuse means empty or played nothing just simply waiting?
What I am not understanding is we played 10 audible beats above though we have 7 pauses in each beat but to a listener it was just total of 10 very slow beat while the other player actually played 80 audible beats of Teen taal

Is this how it works or I missed something?
Believe me I am asking since I want to get this concept clear in my mind.
I wanted to know while one player created 80 basic teen taal theka sound
how many the other guy playing jhaptaal create Is it 10 or different number based on the assumption we are trying to play 10 beat in 16 beats.

Thanks
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rapture 471 posts
rapture
nu -

i think the word "beat" is confusing you. if one tabla player is playing tintal, he will only play 16 beats - one cycle. each beat can be divided into as many pieces as you want. many compositions have three notes per beat. many have four. it doesn't matter, since they always end on sum. this is a very important point. if you have a composition that has 4 per beat, then that gives a total of 4x16=64 notes. most compositions are broken into bhari and khali. half the cycle is 8 beats = 32 notes. but still, all of these compositions end on sum (excluding anagat, etc).

what you wrote down is the jhaptal theka. there are only 10 beats there, each divided into 8 pieces (7 pauses + 1 audible note). what taal is saying is that in order to get tintal, you need to add those 7 pauses, but you only group 5 notes per beat.

written in tintal (each separate group is ONE beat of tintal consisting of 5 notes)

DhinSSSS SSSNaS SSSSS SDhinSSS |

SSSSDhin SSSSS SSNaSS SSSSS |

TinSSSS SSSNaS SSSSS SDhinSSS |

SSSSDhin SSSSS SSNaSS SSSSS |

SUM

so you have fit one cycle of jhaptal into one cycle of tintal. 5 notes per beat and 16 beats = 5x16 = 80 notes.

the second tabla player who is playing tintal will play 16 audible notes of the tintal theka, each played at the beginning of the above "pieces". at the same time, the jhaptal player will play 10 audible notes of the jhaptal theka as written above. both will end on SUM, which is the beginning of the 17th beat. so if the tintal player completes one cycle in 16 seconds, the jhaptal player must complete one cyle in the same amount of time and end his theka on the beginning of the 17th second (SUM)

does this make more sense to you now?

-r
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taal 140 posts
taal
Nupadhay;

Ok, the extension of jhaptaal you did into 80 beats is ok, but the part you have missed is that we have group them in 16 groups, each having 5 beats. Hence jhaptaal played in teentaal would be like below:

DhinSSSS SSSNaS SSSSS SDhinSSS
SSSSDhin SSSSS SSNaSS SSSSS
TinSSSS SSSNaS SSSSS SDhinSSS
SSSSDhin SSSSS SSNaSS SSSSS

In above, we see total 16 groups of teentaal, each having 5 beats, hence total 80 beats which have obtained by extension of jhaptaal.

Hope this is clear. By the way, I just saw rapture’s explanation while posting this reply, and he is perfectly right.
Regards;
Taal
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Olemunati 390 posts
Olemunati
biru_ramen wrote:
I was listening to David Courtney's tabla solo (on this website). At one point he counts 20 equal beats in the 16 beat tintal. How is this written using the Indian style notation? Would there be a "tie" connecting one matra to another? Could I see a composition that uses this type of phrasing?
Where on the site do one find this solo?

PS: Great thread!

5 against 4.

Excellent!
website: tablapedia.com
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biru_ramen 16 posts
biru_ramen
Just click on "David" and then it will be in the "Related Pages" section.
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